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Old March 2, 2018, 12:08 PM   #26
COSteve
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As to Flashhole's question: Is there a "standard" load for the 308" What weight bullet was the gun designed to shoot best?
The military designed the 7.62x51, M80 round for the M14 and M60 MG. It uses a 146 grn boat tail fmj (ball) bullet propelled at 2750 fps as measured 78 ft from the muzzle. Powder used is 46 grns of WC 846 (the military equal to BL-C2), HOWEVER, you must work up your loads because WC 846 varies from lot to lot, some hotter than others and the loads were tuned to velocity. That's as opposed to commercial canister powders that are adjusted to a standard so that lot differences are small enough to produce repeatable results from lot to lot.

Is that the best combination? Depends upon what you mean by 'best'. I use to use both WC 846 (BL-C2) in my M1A and WC 844 (H335) in my ARs but got tired of having to retest each new lot so I went to commercial powders exclusively for consistency. I also have a .308 Winchester Model 88 and got a great deal on some 8lb kegs of Win 748 for it so I use the load data with 150 grn class (147-150) bullets for that in my M1A as well.

However, when I want to shoot precision and/or longer range, I switch to my 168 grn Sierra bullets. I use IMR or Hodgdon 4895 with them, but as they are extruded powders, they are a bit of a pain to meter in my progressive powder measure so I've also used Win 748 with my 168grn bullets for long range as well. I only shoot out to 400 yds at steel plates with mine as even with NM sights, that's the limit of my ability at my age so the difference in accuracy with Win 748 isn't an issue for me. (50 years ago I had much, much better eyes.)
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Old March 2, 2018, 03:21 PM   #27
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1stmar
I've used 41.5 gr iMR49895 since the '80's. Switched to AA2520 because it was cheaper,at the time, and burned a bit cleaner.
These loads are for GI brass and slower then M118 or M852 GI ammo. They are just as accurate. I didn't believe max loads were needed for match shooting. !75's are also excellent, I have just had better luck with 168's
For the non reloader Federal Gold Metal Match is the accuracy standard.
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Old March 2, 2018, 06:08 PM   #28
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Thx dave. I too have had better results w 168 in 308. I have a bunch of 4895 sp may try some. The 4064 ahoots great.
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Old March 3, 2018, 08:50 AM   #29
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4895 is what Old School Service Rifle (SR) match shooters use.

Varget is more 'New School,' and is a great powder for the SR cartridges. Close to 4064, it meters very well and is not sensitive to swings in temperature out on the range - from cool early mornings to hot late afternoons, not to mention swings in humidity.

Hornady promotes in their SR reloading booklets they give away during the Nat'l Matches because it works.
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Old March 3, 2018, 09:52 AM   #30
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Get the loaded M1A. If you do not then you will be spending time, money, and effort to get a stock M1A accuracy increased.

The shorter barrel versions come with trade offs. The rifle was not designed for that length of barrel and while they do work, the muzzle blast is an issue as well as the loss of velocity.

Preserve the integrity of the rifles basic design by getting a standard rifle with the proven accuracy enhancements of the loaded option. You are not going to be shooting it under combat conditions so reliability and the unsupported barrel are not an issue.

It will make a great range rifle.
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Old March 3, 2018, 10:09 AM   #31
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David - What you said makes sense to me but what do you mean by unsupported barrel?
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Old March 3, 2018, 01:04 PM   #32
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David - What you said makes sense to me but what do you mean by unsupported barrel?
The service M14 was plagued by bent barrels as a result of long slender unsupported barrel.



The same thing with the FN-FAL.

5 1/2 years as in infantryman in B co. 1/75th before going to selection and spending another 21 years as an 18 series.

Simply saying that because I have some experience in IMT (Individual Movement Techniques) and assault courses. They are HARD on rifles and the long unsupported barrel is vulnerable to Joe bending it as he does low crawl, high crawl, and rushes.
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Old March 3, 2018, 01:07 PM   #33
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https://www.google.com/search?q=M14+...w=1920&bih=945
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Old March 3, 2018, 02:27 PM   #34
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I had and standard and now have squad.

The 18 inch barrel is far more handy than the full length barrel. Much easier to get in and out of pickup with a squad length M1A.

Here's mine:
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Old March 3, 2018, 03:43 PM   #35
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The 18 inch barrel is far more handy than the full length barrel. Much easier to get in and out of pickup with a squad length M1A.
Good looking rifle. The change in furniture and the standard flash hider really brings out the classic lines vs muzzle brake/off kilter walnut stock Scout Squad M1A .
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Old March 3, 2018, 05:12 PM   #36
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They are HARD on rifles and the long unsupported barrel is vulnerable to Joe bending it as he does low crawl, high crawl, and rushes.
I won't argue with this, but its not what the article you posted said.
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Old March 3, 2018, 05:38 PM   #37
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I won't argue with this, but its not what the article you posted said
I agree. Nothing I have ever read on the M14 said anything about an 'unsupported barrel.' Quite honestly, it doesn't make sense. The M16 has, by definition, an unsupported barrel. In fact, I'm trying to think of a design that would be considered 'supported...' and I can't. Now, I'm not saying bent barrels aren't a fact, they most certainly are, but that's more of a barrel profile factor.
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Old March 3, 2018, 06:03 PM   #38
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I agree. Nothing I have ever read on the M14 said anything about an 'unsupported barrel.' Quite honestly, it doesn't make sense.
It is a description and not a technical term which is why you are confused. When a design has a barrel long enough to become a weak point making the it susceptible to barrel bending.

Simply google "M14 Bent Barrel" and note the results.

Nor is not an emotional thing nor does it negate the M14 rifle as a great design, it is just a fact. I love the gun and carried an M21 on three of my tours to Afghanistan.

Quote:
I won't argue with this, but its not what the article you posted said.
Sure it does and you are free to do your research. I know the reasons the US Army listed to us as to why the M-14 was removed from general service in its original configuration which I have passed on to you.

You are free to make your own conclusion and it is not my job to correct the internet!

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Old March 3, 2018, 07:21 PM   #39
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During 1969 I trained in Marine Corps boot camp and ITR with the M14 rifle, by the time I reached Vietnam in 1972 we were issued the M16. The irony is that while I have long forgotten the serial number of my rifle I remember it was made by TRW.

I eventually ended up working for TRW in Euclid, Ohio (Cleveland) at the same plant where my boot camp rifle was made. When I began working there the rifle test range was still in place, the last M14 rifle was long gone.

The below is me shooting left handed on qualification day, yes I shoot left handed. The ability of the rifle at the 500 yard line in the prone always amazed me as a kid. June of 1969 Edson Range at Camp Pendleton CA.


So maybe owning a M1A is a nostalgia thing but I really, to this day, enjoy that rifle.
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Old March 3, 2018, 09:53 PM   #40
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Great picture. Thanks for sharing.

Plenty of youTube videos comparing the different models. I will agonize over the choice between the Loaded and the Scout models.

Has there been a scout variant with the heavier barrel cut to 18"?

Also curious if the flash suppressor and muzzle brake are interchangable?
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Old March 3, 2018, 10:25 PM   #41
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The Springfield commercial flash hider w/o the bayonet lug is interchangeable with the Scout Squad muzzle brake.

A bayonet lug would get in the way of cleaning the gas piston.

I don't believe the Scout muzzle brake has much in the way of function as the ports are not angled.
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Old March 3, 2018, 11:15 PM   #42
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The service M14 was plagued by bent barrels as a result of long slender unsupported barrel.
I see considerable difference between that statement, and the posted article. The sentence before the one you highlighted does not say the problem was with the service rifles in general, it was 30% of that batch of rebuilds that had bent barrels, oversize gas cylinders, etc.

I know the boys bend and break things when they do the run, dodge, & jump for real. I've worked on them. I was USAOC&S trained on the M14 as a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20).

Everything can, and does happen, but I never heard of an issues with bent barrels with the M14. Not one that reached the status of something noted and discussed, anyway. With the M16, it was a different matter. Bent barrels were an issue, to the point where our set of inspection gauges included a "bore straightness gauge". There was no such gauge for the M14.

The M16 bent barrel problem pretty much went away, when along with the introduction of the H-bar profile barrels, the Army figured out that troops in the field were using their rifles as prybars, to break the metal banding on pallets of ammo and food dropped to firebases. When they told the troops to stop doing that, the M16 bent barrel issue went away. Mostly.

And nowhere in any period literature is there any mention of bent barrels being the reason for replacing the M14 as our service rifle.
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Old March 4, 2018, 08:24 AM   #43
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They are HARD on rifles and the long unsupported barrel is vulnerable to Joe bending it as he does low crawl, high crawl, and rushes.
That never happened with the venerable ol' M1 Garand!
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Old March 4, 2018, 10:37 AM   #44
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I was a US Army Armorer who was responsible for over 300 M14s in Germany in 1968 and not one ever got a bent barrel on my watch. They'd go out into the field all the time and come back muddy, frozen, or drowned with mags jammed in them from debris, but I never saw anyone come back with a bent barrel.

We did have one with a tweaked barrel in my Arms Room when I took it over, however, the trooper admitted he used his weapon as a pry bar so I don't think that counts.
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Old March 4, 2018, 11:40 AM   #45
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COSteve:
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I was a US Army Armorer who was responsible for over 300 M14s in Germany in 1968 and not one ever got a bent barrel on my watch. They'd go out into the field all the time and come back muddy, frozen, or drowned with mags jammed in them from debris, but I never saw anyone come back with a bent barrel.

We did have one with a tweaked barrel in my Arms Room when I took it over, however, the trooper admitted he used his weapon as a pry bar so I don't think that counts.
During my Marine Corps years at each command I was assigned to a barracks, each barracks had an armory and your M14 lived in that armory just as you lived in that barracks. When we drew our rifles out we signed for them, before taking your rifle out for an exercise or to the range for qualifications. When that rifle was returned it had better be immaculate and I mean immaculate. You and not the Armour was responsible for your rifle. If you tried to turn in a dirty rifle you may as well sign your soul over to St. Peter as your ass belonged to the First Sergeant. The armory was expected to store rifles and replace any parts which may have broken. The cleanliness of your rifle was your responsibility and that was quite clear. Even personal weapons stored in the armory were expected to be maintained including clean.

Ron
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Old March 4, 2018, 04:47 PM   #46
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The NY compliant version does not have a flash suppressor. Not sure about a muzzle brake. The M1A forum had a few threads on the compliance subject but I was still confused about what is legal in NY.
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Old March 4, 2018, 09:22 PM   #47
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Mine is a National Match with an OD green glass bedded stock. I have a Sadlak Industries scope mount and a Vortex Viper PST gen II 5-25x-50mm scope on it. Sub MOA all day long using Federals 168gr Sierra Match Kings. I'm thinking about getting some Smith Enterprise parts and maybe an EBR stock but it shoots like a dream as it sits. It doesn't matter which M1a you choose I think. I do know that you'll fall in love with it though.
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Old March 5, 2018, 06:39 AM   #48
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Awesome and beautiful guns

I highly recommend picking one up to get the feel

A few years back (about 10 years ago) , I HAD to have an M1A to go hunt with.

After picking one up a few times at a gun show, and then seeing what the steps were to get a good mount for a scope....... I went another way

Bison Armory 6.8 - AR15


The M1A is a classic. Its an awesome rifle to shoot, but to me, there are much better choices to lug around the woods
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Old March 5, 2018, 08:23 AM   #49
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* * *'When that rifle was returned it had better be immaculate and I mean immaculate. You and not the Armour was responsible for your rifle. If you tried to turn in a dirty rifle you may as well sign your soul over to St. Peter as your ass belonged to the First Sergeant. The armory was expected to store rifles and replace any parts which may have broken. The cleanliness of your rifle was your responsibility and that was quite clear. Even personal weapons stored in the armory were expected to be maintained including clean.
That's why I always carried a wad of cash.

My less affluent buddy needed the coinage, so he cleaned my rifle while I played on the computer in my bunk. Yep, Basic was fun.

On its return-trip to the armory, my weapon was always cleaner than those of the others in our barracks - including his. And the Sarge never screamed - at me at least.

Focus on my example, dudes ... It's called 'leadership.'
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Old March 5, 2018, 09:21 PM   #50
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Before you buy, suggest you examine one alongside a M-1 Garand. Pay particular notice of that piece of metal inside the receiver that spans from left and right. It's a couple of inches from the backside of the receiver. That is called the web or bridge of the receiver. For a better view you should field strip the M-1A and the M-1 Garand.

That part serves to cam the firing pin tail away from the bolt face. You don't want a firing pin to be protruding when the bolt goes forward. If it did, you'd have an out of battery firing which can injure the user, spectator and damage the firearm.

If you look at the casted web/bridge on a Springfield (below Serial #49,000 which is every new one they make), they cast it with a huge lump on that bridge. Contrast that to the M-1 Garand and note how clean that is. On the casted Springfield receiver, the tail of the firing pin must work extra hard to overcome that lump. Given time, the tail can break and then the firing pin remain forward its own. Therefore it becomes incumbent for the user to examine the firing pin for signs of wear and to replace it if it appears to be cracking.

You won't find that defect on the Smith Enterprise receiver or the ones that are forged and milled (forgot who does that).
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