Deputy assigned to Florida school 'never went in' during shooting, sheriff says

[doofus47]

Tom Servo pretty much summed up the situation.

I can understand that officer being scared crapless. I can also understand that several teachers were probably just as scared and ran toward the shooting.

In a more honorable world, the sheriff would resign as well, after all, his officer's actions probably fell to the level of his training.

[Psychedelic Bang]

Just so we all know - The Sherriff that many in this thread agree should resign is also now calling for a bunch of gun control

His resignation is like two birds with one stone

I am not sure if linking a Whitehouse petition on this site is a violation of TOS. If it is - plz delete the post, and accept my apologies.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...f-scott-israel

The petition needs 145 more signatures to be visible to the public without the link.

Plz sign/share the above petition

"Florida sheriff Scott Israel says lawmakers 'won't get re-elected' if they don't push for gun control"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16...n-control.html

[5whiskey]

So before we all jump on board and call this cop a coward, make sure you know what you would do under the same circumstances. Before I would personally make a decision I would want more information in regard to the entire event.

Like you, I have been in armed conflict. Once in Afghanistan, and several times in Iraq. I also am law enforcement. I will call him a coward. FWIW I know why he did. I understand not wanting to run to conflict when he can retire at any time. But... Man he lived a good long life already. You can't risk it for a bunch of kids? Seriously!?!? As others have said, no one demands he commit to a frontal assault. As others have said this kid was preoccupied with a target rich environment. Getting the drop on him from behind is entirely plausible. I've been shot at, and I don't really point that out much but I say it because I know what its like. Its not fun, but it also pisses you off (or it did me). On top of it, I do the job too. If you can't run toward armed conflict to try and save a school full of kids you have no business wearing a badge and gun.

On another note, I absolutely agree that the sheriff should have protestors in the street firebombing the courthouse. I live in a much different area, so gun control wouldn't be the focus here. My community would lose our minds at this sheriff after all these details came out. On top of it the guy was an arrogant prick at the CNN town hall. "I've been in law enforcement 39 years, and I know how to protect people"... My ass.

[Slamfire]

Use to travel to Washington DC, when it was called "the murder Capital of America".

I did drive into "Indian Country", no Cops or Cop cars to be seen. But, around the National Mall, lots of Cops handing out traffic tickets to all the nice middle class people.

Gotta think, what will keep you alive longer, bullying nice, unarmed, middle class out of towners, or bumping up against a local Druggie/Drug Dealer who expects to die before he is 21?

[johnwilliamson062]

I have seen reactions to extreme violence. From very cool calm and collected to frozen denial. A person overwhelmed the first time they are exposed to such events may react better during subsequent occurrences. It is just very hard for me to judge harshly without a very good idea of exactly what went on and I do not have that now.
Four officers not going in is pretty bad.
At that point I wouldn't say a single rifle holds a firepower advantage at inside a school ranges.
At that point they could have proceeded with the more conservative much less risky diamond type tactics. At that point someone must have had a long-arm.

For an ACTIVE shooter the general consensus is engaging immediately. I am not sure that is true if they are no longer shooting. It is possible when the other three officers arrived there was no longer shooting and the original officer did not provide accurate information. It is possible they thought they had someone holed up with hostages who was not "active." In that case, not entering would probably be appropriate. Eventually solid information will be provided.

[Joe-ker]

I definitely want to label him a coward. It's his job to protect those kids----- he did not.

I understand being out gunned changes the situation, A LOT.

I say any one in the protection business needs to have an AR on their shoulder as well as a sidearm. Then he'd have no excuse for not going in. After that bank heist in LA many years ago I thought we all learned a handgun just isn't enough for our LEO's anymore.


After all-----if those black guns are as scary as so many think they are---- just carrying one should scare them off.

[Troy800]

Well to start I do not know what they were thinking or why they did what they did. I am confident that we do not know the whole story and the media is only going to feed us what they want and in a manner that will sell news. High emotions is news!

Cops are human too. Just because you get a paycheck does not make you immune to fear, confusion, human emotions, and othe psychological effect. We all have a vision of how we think things should have went down but we do not know how we would react untill we are actually faced with that circumstance. Some will excel and run too it and some will be paralyzed in fear or indecision.

I am not going to call him a coward but do agree he did not respond in a way we would have hoped. May be fear, the way he was trained, lack of training, indecision, confusion, etc. My first thought is most people in high adreniline circumstanses revert to training. It is hard to process though in those situations and we usually go to auto. First would be training and the way we are wired.

Just remember this was over in a matter of minutes. The time it took me to write this post the shooting would already have been over. A short hesitation or pause could be the difference between being labeled as a hero or coward regardless of your intentions.

[Tom Servo]

I am not sure if linking a Whitehouse petition on this site is a violation of TOS. If it is - plz delete the post, and accept my apologies.

Not in this subforum, but please understand that these petitions do no good whatsoever.

I definitely want to label him a coward.

That's pretty much what's already happened. He's never going to work in law enforcement again. His community knows what he did. His friends and family know what he did. Most of all, he has to live with it.

I don't approve of his inaction, but I don't envy the man, either.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Troy800

Just remember this was over in a matter of minutes. The time it took me to write this post the shooting would already have been over. A short hesitation or pause could be the difference between being labeled as a hero or coward regardless of your intentions.

Peterson "hesitated" long enough (over four minutes) for officers from an adjoining town to arrive. THEY (Coral Springs PD) were the first to enter the building. Peterson didn't lead them in, he didn't even follow them in. He and three other Broward County deputies remained in the parking lot, behind their black-and-whites, while the Coral Springs guys entered the building. Yes, by then the shooter was gone -- but they didn't know that. They didn't hesitate -- they went.

[fredvon4]

I hate to be invested in this discussion... so many times we simply do NOT know what we DO NOT KNOW

I have watched literally 100 + internet videos of on the scene civ/police interactions and never once was able to know if I was getting the "as it happened full story"

Over time I learned to decide there is no way I CAN rationally come to any firm conclusions...this of course is tempered buy my own unique" bene there done that experiences"

I am a run into the fire type soul...have been since a child

But I have been trained by many a Korea, Viet, Saudi Vet and sheriff and local Police mentors... Close combat extensive trained in the best of the best Mock cities with real actors

EVERY situation is by definition different... some times you have perfect Intel sometimes NONE

I am NOT willing to chastise ANY of these responders.... and neither should any of my fellow forums members .... we were NOT there, we have no clue based on the campus size and multiple building where any of them were relative to the gun fire

There are too many variables relative to the event and no media outlet can possibly do any good second by second accounting ----so any of us could play QB and on scene commander....and with zero actual knowledge...and be totally wrong

I have been the poor guy going into bad situation and I have been the commander sending in the teams...

YOU NEVER EVER WASTE your member or team whe you have no immediate clue on many bits of intel
HOW MANY BAD guys
How many Non Combatants

Nine people (of 43) died... in my event decades ago... I am haunted that my indecision and keen training to gain more and more Intel... I second guess all the time if or if not I should have just rushed in shooting every thing...then I wonder how many innocents I MIGHT have killed...

You can not win

I am sleeping OK because and ONLY because... I trust the training I paid attention to and practiced ......

Until one or more of these First responders cops out loud to being a cowered...I personally give then a pass.... just cuz..I WAS NOT THERE

[5whiskey]

I am NOT willing to chastise ANY of these responders.... and neither should any of my fellow forums members .... we were NOT there, we have no clue based on the campus size and multiple building where any of them were relative to the gun fire

Fine, don't. I will for you. I, like you, know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two. I will not make excuses for a cop who hides outside during a school shooting. You wanna wear the badge and carry the gun? Then use it when it comes to saving kids lives during a school shooting. I get it the odds may be bad, but were not asking someone to run in a burning building to save a cat. Were talking about saving kids. Kids lives could have literally been saved just by some suppression fire from behind cover. Sometimes the stakes are so high you literally can't hold back and come up with plan, think about policy, or hope someone else takes care of it. Sometimes the stakes are so high you just have to do it. If you can't do that turn that badge and gun in and go home.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 5whisley

If you can't do that turn that badge and gun in and go home.

But preferably before the fact rather than after the fact.

[Marco Califo]

I am not going to play the blame game here.
But, in the 1990s Los Angeles Rodney King trial incited riots, there was a well documented and reported "command failure". The police did nothing, systematically. I suspect the same thing may have happened here. Who was the incident commander? Who decided strategy and tactics? Yes, there were multiple agencies involved. In California, the fire departments (local, local mutual aid, federal, state), et al, have a unified command syructure.
I think we did not see that sort of thing in Parkland Law Enforcement. Maybe that is the learning point to be fixed. The "inactive" officers may have waited expecting, rightly or wrongly, for commanders orders. If for no other reason, to prevent friendly fire.
Of course, the actual solution to these problems is not the guns. It is the crazy people who get and use them. That is where the crime and failures originate.

[Jim Watson]

Last I heard, a lot of cops have families too.

Yes, and if he had kids in that school, he might have behaved differently.

[johnwilliamson062]

I posted this earlier in a separate post to my comments which it was related, but immediately following post 55. Since it was in a separate post without any discussion it was a drive by and thus deleted and infraction issued. I apologize for the poor etiquette.
The following is a, in my opinion, well written article in which a veteran police officer and experienced psychologist specializing in police psychology are interviewed. The article makes some of the points I was grasping for much more clearly and eloquently than I could hope to manage.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2cb47b08ba29

Courage is going from a calm low stress safe zone and heading to a place where one will face immediate danger. Cowardice is ignoring the call. It would be interesting to know what all the other LEO in the area were up to. I wouldn't be surprised if some dragged their feet in getting to the scene. It wouldn't' be the first time an officer has done so.
The RSO had to make his decisions inside the high stress danger zone. He did move towards the danger. The three responding Sheriff officers probably relied on information and his lead in making their decision. They did move from well out of the danger zone into the danger zone.
The officers from the PD had the drive over, with relatively low adrenaline and psychological strain, to gather themselves, review their training, and decide on a course of action BEFORE they entered the situation and were overwhelmed with subconscious psychological effects. They likely had already decided on a course of action when they exited their vehicles. They probably talked it over with a dispatcher who was further removed in addition to each other over the radio.
I believe courage is knowingly walking into a situation calmly, such as the responding police officers did. The reaction when the situation goes to hell right around you is not related to courage or cowardice.
Those judging are trusting extremely limited information interpreted by news reporters who probably have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I once watched tracers from an M2 running near cyclic scream by just over my head as I hunkered behind a small retaining wall. Concrete from the building behind me showering down on me and dirt from in front of the wall splashing over. I found myself thinking about the timing between rounds, which was surprisingly long. Wondering whether I could swing my arm between them without getting hit. Remembering/realizing there were almost certainly non-tracer rounds in between the tracers. Wondering if I could still swing my hand in between rounds. Wondering if anyone had ever tried it before. Thinking what a story that would be.
No idea how long I was engrossed in these thoughts. I really don't think I was aware of much of anything besides the tracers passing overhead during this period of time. The 'bad guys' could have retreated back to the wall as cover and I might not have even noticed unless they stepped on me. I couldn't fire on the M2 and I couldn't leave my position. I was physically doing what I should have been doing. I can't say it was anymore than coincidence and luck at that point in time. My mind was totally distracted.

[Sharkbite]

Who was the incident commander? Who decided strategy and tactics?

In an ACTIVE shooter event, there is no “incident commander” in those first critical moments. For at least a decade, the first officer on scene goes to the sound of guns and engages the shooter anyway be can.

The statistics are irrefutable, at the first sign of armed resistance the shooter stops killing innocents. Not a single occurrence of fighting back against armed resistance. The shooter either gives up or takes his own life.

Everybody i know carries a “active shooter bag” on duty. Arrive on scene, throw on your plates (15-20seconds max) and get in there. Step over the wonded and go to the sound of gunfire.

As more guys show up, that response can be more coordinated. First on scene goes in. Its been that way across the board for a long time. Initially, right after Columbine, the training was to wait for 3-4 officers before going in. That changed as it became well known that the shooting always stopped at the first engagement of the shooter.

That Deputy has a rough road ahead of him. Being chastised NATIONALLY by everyone up to and including the President of the USA, his name being thrown around and called a coward. People saying he could have saved kids lives, but did nothing...hard to live with.

That being said, not everyone that pushes a patrol car around is a warrior. Lots of social workers in uniforms today. I saw that in my Dept. Some guys would damn near kill themselves getting to a shots fired call, others would try to do anything else but respond

[In The Ten Ring]

A good deal of success in combat is really just a combination of ignorance, luck, and courage. If every Luftwaffe fighter pilot knew how many .50 BMG rounds were flying towards them on each run, they might not have tried so hard.

You always want a least one guy to back you up but sometimes you just can't wait. Police officers though, as popular as courage might be, are still paid by the govt, they have to do what they are told, and that matters. If they are told to "hang back, wait for SWAT" then they will generally do that. Most people do what the guy that pays them tells them to do.

Too bad the coach that was shot by the gunman didn't break federal law and bring his own gun. Just saying. Gun free zones work....but not the way you want them to.

*Edit.....officers that have the warrior mindset....how long do they make it on a police force? How long till they are pushed out or just leave due to "politics?"

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring

You always want a least one guy to back you up but sometimes you just can't wait. Police officers though, as popular as courage might be, are still paid by the govt, they have to do what they are told, and that matters. If they are told to "hang back, wait for SWAT" then they will generally do that. Most people do what the guy that pays them tells them to do.

But waiting for SWAT was a tactic that was discredited and discarded back in 1999, after Columbine. For a short time, the new approach was for the first two guys to go in together, and not long thereafter it was changed to the first guy goes in ... with a partner if there's a partner handy, but alone if there's nobody else there. The mantra is supposed to be "Go toward the sound of the gunfire."

[rickyrick]

Lots of people are saying lots of things about this, but still doesn’t change the fact that he at least had enough education, training and equipment to stop or kill the shooter. Neither one of those happened. We’ve given up our privacy and freedom to prevent these events.
We have many federal bureaus with budgets bigger than some countrys have, and it still happened. We’ve had countless attacks, yet no one is held accountable. But still, there was one guy who for sure could’ve at least had some impact on this event... and he did not.

[In The Ten Ring]

Clearly we need more gun bans and we need to understand that only a person in a police uniform can protect us.

Even if police never get there in time or when they do they choose to stay outside. A civilized person waits for police. Period. I'm sure Gov. Rick Scott and Sheriff Israel would agree.

[Sharkbite]

officers that have the warrior mindset....how long do they make it on a police force? How long till they are pushed out or just leave due to "politics?"

I made it 5years, then went into Govt contracting overseas. A much less stressful job.

[armoredman]

The responding officer couldn't be command, as he was directly involved - the first NOn involved officer should have taken command per NIMS and begun directing efforts, preferably inward. If none of the responding deputies took command, this is a huge failure in training as well. Take command, do something, and retain command until properly relieved. I have been Command in enough incident to know how it works.

[zxcvbob]

The deputy is a POS, but I think he's also being made a scapegoat as the sheriff tries to cover his own ass. I thought this was interesting: https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/s...54507744374784

[Aguila Blanca]

The plot thickens.

http://www.newser.com/story/255837/f...t-sheriff.html

Politico reports that the sheriff's office's active shooter protocol does not require a deputy to engage the shooter. A sheriff's office spokeswoman declined to explain why.

So the sheriff's office protocol doesn't require that deputies engage an active shooter -- yet the sheriff suspended Peterson for not engaging the shooter.

[Arte Johnson]Verrry interesting.[/Arte Johnson]

https://www.politico.com/states/flor...pension-275356

[Israel said]“This is an active shooter. We push to the entry, to the killer. We get in, and we take out the threat,” Israel said, explaining his office’s policies that Peterson violated.

However, contrary to Israel’s suggestion, the “active shooter” protocol from the Broward Sheriff’s Office doesn’t automatically require a deputy to go in. Instead, the protocol says the on-scene deputy or deputies “may” — instead of “shall” — engage the shooter. “A supervisor’s approval or on-site observation is not required for this decision,” the document says.

[stagpanther]

I would have rushed in and takin the kid out with nunchucks.