Necks too wide. Help.

[bdeloa01]

Just got into handloading. Shooting 308. Got some once-shot factory loaded winchester x brass shot from my rifle. I cleaned and tumbled the brass. Lubed it, trimmed to 2.005, ran it through a Lee neck sizer die, belled and chamfered them, charged with 44 grains of Alliant RL-15, then went to seat some Nossler 150gr. 308s and found that when I placed the bullet on the neck, it fell through to the powder. Tried a resized uncharged case and the bullet fell clean through to the primer pocket, like the neck is way to wide, and the neck resizing die had not touched it. Tried a Sierra OTM, same thing. Fell through. Do I have a faulty die? What you guys think?

[tangolima]

That's the first reason I don't like the Lee neck sizing die. The mandrel is made too big in diameter to my liking. The sized brass has nominal neck inner diameter of 0.307". 0.001" smaller than the bullet. Sometimes it will come out even bigger. They believe the minimum bullet hold is good for accuracy. I found it unacceptable for my need.

If you read the instructions that comes with the die, they have several suggestions to increase the bullet hold, including annealing the neck.

All this is a true pita. I personally don't see the benefit of having the neck sizing dies. I stopped using them long ago.

-TL

[swinguard]

I have one for my 30.06 and it works perfectly. You do have to practice with it a little bit to get the neck tension right.

I have a Lee Classic press and I have to screw my die in an extra half turn.

When you feel the primer being extracted the lever will come to a stop. You will then need to put extra pressure on the lever to get the collets to close and size the neck. It took me about 5 practice/dummy rounds to get this right.

Hope this helps.

[reddog81]

whats the diameter of the bullets? I've never used a Lee rifle die or a neck sizing die so I'm not 100% sure how they are supposed to work.

[dahermit]

bdeloa01, did you read, then follow the directions that came with the die? From what you posted, it would seem that the cases are not being neck sized correctly. Before making any assumptions, make sure the die is adjusted correctly.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Yes, check to make sure the die is set to adequately resize the case neck. If that does not work, it sounds like time to get a better brand of dies.

[g.willikers]

When in doubt, read the directions.
I've been using Lee dies for a long time without complaint.

[pete2]

I use Lee collet dies for .243 and .270. I had to work the mandrel down smaller to get enough neck tension. Once in a while a neck will seize on the mandrel, will actually pull the neck off the case. Messy. You may have to run the cases through a FL die after a few shots. I bought the collet dies because I hate messing with case lube. Ain't no easy way.

[Metal god]

I have the Lee collet dies and like Tango I to find the bullet hold to be to light . I've read you can order custom sized mandrels from Lee .

Yes read the directions and follow closely but even then things may not work out

Unlike you the first time I ever tried my collet die I think I had TOOOOOOO much tension


Either way I'd measure both the diameter of the bullet and the mandrel . If the mandrel is not at least .002 smaller then the bullet then you'll have that issue .

[44 AMP]

Granted I don't use the collet type neck sizers, so I don't know about issues due to them, I am curious about this....

I cleaned and tumbled the brass. Lubed it, trimmed to 2.005, ran it through a Lee neck sizer die, belled and chamfered them,

Chamfering after trimming, yes, but why are you belling the case mouth of a bottle necked case when loading jacketed bullets???

And, HOW did you bell them? Is it possible your collet die did its job, and you undid it with the amount (and method?) of belling the case mouth??

I'm still using the Lyman FL .308 Win sizer die I got new back in 72. Never had any issue with it that wasn't directly my fault. (and very FEW of those!)

[Metal god]

Is it possible your collet die did its job, and you undid it with the amount (and method?) of belling the case mouth??

That right there is a good point

[F. Guffey]

belled and chamfered them,

I have been told we have become a bunch of reloaders that know what the other is talking about so it is not necessary to make anything clear. SO; I am not one of those; What does 'belled' mean?

And to make it more clear, I am not a fan of starting a new reloader into a dead run, especially with specialty dies. I believe you should start out with standard, common everyday dies like a full length sizing die and a bullet seating die.

I called a manufacturer about dies reloaders were getting all giggly, they were claiming they were purchasing body dies. I called the manufacturer, we decided it was not possible to size the body of the case without shoulder support; meaning if the die sizes the shoulder and case body it is not a body die. Anyhow, I was sizing cases without neck sizing with common, ordinary, everyday dies without knowing it was necessary to purchases another die.

F. Guffey

[snuffy]

Just got into handloading. Shooting 308. Got some once-shot factory loaded winchester x brass shot from my rifle. I cleaned and tumbled the brass. Lubed it, trimmed to 2.005, ran it through a Lee neck sizer die, belled and chamfered them

1. You do NOT bell rifle case mouths. (Unless you're loading lead boolits)

Lubed it, trimmed to 2.005

2. IF you ARE using the Lee collet neck size die, you do not need lube.

trimmed to 2.005

3.You always trim AFTER SIZING.

The Lee collet neck size die is totally different from neck sizer dies from all other neck makers. It squeezes the neck against a mandrel to reduce the inside diameter of the neck to hold the bullet. As supplied by lee, it does NOT size as small (ID), as either full length or neck only sizer dies.

Set this die up like the instructions say to do it, or read the Lee reloading manual. It has to be set right. I first used the collet neck die on 7-08 brass. It did not provide enough neck tension. I simply chucked the mandrel in my ¼ inch drill motor, held some 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper against it, reduced the diameter by one and a half thousandths. That increased the neck tension to approximately what the FL die was.

WARNING Tightening the die down further to put more pressure on the collet fingers WILL result in blowing the aluminum cap out the top of the die. IF that happens, it strips the threads, making it useless. Lee will replace those caps upon request. It actually acts like a safety valve to prevent damage to more costly parts.

[T. O'Heir]

"...belled..." That's not done to bottle necked cases. The chamfering of the inside of the case mouth replaces that step done with hand gun and straight walled rifle cases. Chamfering isn't required every time either. Only with new brass or after trimming.
Sounds like your neck sizer isn't set up right. Or it might be the wrong diameter. Isn't likely, but measure the expander button to be sure.

[SARuger]

When I neck size my 30-06 I have had this same issue. What I did to fix it was to loosen the cap and then turn it back down until the "O" ring just touches the die body, basically, the cap is loose. The bullet tension is just right at that point. Of course all brass is different, different thickness. You have to play with it some.

I use a Rock Chucker for all rifle sizing duties so I go two full turns past the point the die touches the shell holder.

[Stats Shooter]

I recently began using the Lee Collet. It works as advertised. It needs no lube. One good practice I have found is pull the ram until the mandrel just closes, then release, turn the shell, repeat. Keep turning and repeatedly pulling the ram until you have fully sized the neck.

As others have said, (asked) what do you mean "flairing" the mouth.

Flairing is a process needed on straight cases and cast bullets where you slightly enlarge the case mouth, usually with a separate "flairing die". I flair the case mouths for my .44 mag, .357 mag, 40 s&w etc. But I do not flair any bottle neck rifle cases because I do not shoot cast bullets.

Some reloaders do not fully resize the neck of some bottle neck case to a uniform diameter inside the neck down to the shoulder. It widens slightly as you move down. This process is called partial neck sizing.

If you don't have the Lee die setup properly, resulting in partial neck sizing, and then flaird it like I described above, you will have possibly an over sized neck.

If you are new to reloading, I recommend using a standard sizing die with expander ball. I still use that method in many cases, especially my semi-auto rifles because of dented case mouths.

[Don Fischer]

I've got two Lee Collet dies. A 243 and something else. Haven't had a problem since the first round's. I found out before I primed them though, tried a bullet right out of the die. Lee say's to use a lot of pressure and it does work. sometimes I think I'm getting to much. Backed off a bit last night with the 243 and the bullet's were still held well but not as tight as before. I checked them before priming also.

In the beginning I had a hard time with how much pressure it took.

[swinguard]

After reading the replies to this post I decided to measure the mandrels in my 30.06 Lee neck sizing die and FL die.

The mandrel from the neck sizing die measures .304 and the mandrel from the FL die is .306 at its thickest point.

Is there a reason there for the .002 difference in size of the mandrels?

[Fotheringill]

For .223 only but same principles apply-

I have a set of RCBS Competition dies and set of Redding Competition neck sizing dies. I was never happy with the runout for either. On a lark, I picked up a @$25 Lee neck sizing collet die. Runout now less than 1 to 1.5. It was over 2 with the other, super duper dies.

I was disdainful of the Lee dies based upon what I read.

I strongly urge you to read and know the instructions AND read very long post #19
at

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...ience.3885018/

Which will show what is wrong with the instructions. Follow that post exactly and you are going to see a marked improvement. I did and the difference between the packed instructions results and the post was remarkable.

Lee will make a mandrel to exactly the specs you want for a very low price, IIRC $5 or so.

[Reloadron]

I cleaned and tumbled the brass. Lubed it, trimmed to 2.005, ran it through a Lee neck sizer die, belled and chamfered them...

Normally I would either full length or neck size my brass and then trim to a suggested trim length. This places any size operation before any trim operation. That said I am not sure what you mean with "belling". I don't associate belling with a bottle neck rifle case before I seat a bullet. Therefore I am not quite sure where you are going with belling?

While I don't have a Lee Neck Sizer Die sitting here in front of me you could maybe remove and measure the mandrel outside diameter and that should be close to what your case neck ID is.

Ron

[snuffy]

After reading the replies to this post I decided to measure the mandrels in my 30.06 Lee neck sizing die and FL die.

The mandrel from the neck sizing die measures .304 and the mandrel from the FL die is .306 at its thickest point.

Is there a reason there for the .002 difference in size of the mandrels?

Yes.

Because the way the two dies work differently. The expander button that you called a mandrel in a standard neck sizer die works by expanding the ID of the neck that was just sized way undersize for taking a bullet. The neck surface of any standard,(not the lee collet), die sizes the neck way too small to be able to seat a bullet. The button is then dragged through the neck from the bottom to expand it back to size to take a bullet,(allow it to be seated). Usually the I.D. of a neck is .003 smaller than outside diameter of the bullet. For 30 cal, or .308 that means the ID would be .305 after sizing. The O.D. of that button is NOT .305, it's bigger than that to allow for brass spring back.

Die makers figure out die dimensions assuming the reloader is working with once fired brass.

The above is because brass springs back when squeezed by the dies we use for reloading. It depends on what we're doing to it. Sizing down by shoving it into a FL, (Full length), it has to be squeezed further than where you want it to end up to allow for spring back. It also depends on how hard the brass is. Sizing causes brass to "work harden". Meaning it gets harder each time it's sized.

The mandrel on the Lee collet neck die has to be smaller that the final I.D. to allow for brass that WILL spring back. The more bullet hold or bullet pull you want, the smaller you want that mandrel. Then again the more times that brass case has been fired, the more it will spring back resulting in less bullet pull/seating pressure.

[44 AMP]

Then again the more times that brass case has been fired, the more it will spring back resulting in less bullet pull/seating pressure.

I've got to disagree with this, slightly. I believe its actually less "springy" the more it gets worked. When it work hardens enough, that last working (squeeze and spring back) results in a crack.

This could happen in sizing or on firing. Sizing squeezes the outside, in, and when the pressure is released, the brass springs back slightly. So you size it smaller than what you want the end result to be. Firing squeezes from the inside, out, when the pressure is removed, the case springs back, slightly, allowing extraction from the chamber.

And remember, that brass you're trimming off comes from somewhere. Meaning that over multiple firings, the case gets THINNER. And remember we are talking about tiny fractions of an inch, at a time.

[RC20]

Chuck the neck die, get a nice FL, RCBS is fine, Forster a bit nicer.

Removed the sizer ball.

Do minimum shoulder bump back.

Get a Lyman M die (uniform well made expander) use it.

DO NOT USE THE MOUTH EXANDER (well flat based bullets but barely)

Your chamber should be done on a prep station or a shoulder trim die (Gerard Tri Trimmer is the best)

Life will then be good.

[Mal H]

Frankly folks, it appears bdeloa01 isn't all that interested in your replies. He posted the question, left a minute later and hasn't returned to answer any of the questions asked.

[snuffy]

Frankly folks, it appears bdeloa01 isn't all that interested in your replies. He posted the question, left a minute later and hasn't returned to answer any of the questions asked.

I was going to ask that same question, where's the OP? This looks like a drive-by posting by some anti gunner looking to waste our time!