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March 21, 2015, 08:13 AM | #51 |
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Get off the x
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March 22, 2015, 09:19 PM | #52 | ||||
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Taking the recommendation of this thread -- to move when under threat -- to the extreme, it would be even better to not venture into a dangerous environment in the first place. Violent crime statistics are available by location, so it can be easy to avoid nasty places. While I did not do an exhaustive search, I could find no YouTube videos showing or endorsing the idea of shooting on the run. Delivering accurate fire from a stable stance seems to be preferred for obvious reasons. Those videos that do address shooting while moving emphasize walking slowly in a non-bobbing manner. I can think of no legitimate self-defense reason for shooting while advancing on a bad guy, as I assume any decrease in range is more than countered by decreased accuracy and precision imparted by movement. Also, proximity to a bad guy puts you in increased jeopardy. I can understand a need to shoot while moving backwards to put distance between you and the bad guy, or, better yet, to reach cover behind you. Moving laterally makes sense to reach cover or to make you a harder target to hit, but a walking speed isn't going to throw a bad guy off by much at self-defense distances. Combat gaming videos that I recall seeing also don't show any shooting on the run, but rather running between stations where stable stances are taken from which to deliver fire balanced to an optimal mix of accuracy and rapidity. Perhaps I've misunderstood the OP in interpreting the advice to move as meaning to shoot while moving quickly. I can understand the advantages of the combat-gaming tactic of running between stations where solid stances are assumed from which to deliver fire. If I were to participate in such games I would, due to my foot, be walking between stations. |
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March 23, 2015, 07:44 AM | #53 | ||||||||
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Posted by Limnophile:
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You have to (1) recognize the threat, (2) draw and present, and (3) shoot as many times as necessary. AND--your attacker has to stop before striking you. If you detect and start acting when the attacker is six yards away, and if he moves a five yards per second, that must all take place in 1.2 seconds--including the time for the attacker to be stopped. You can increase the time by moving--away from him, or laterally and forcing the attacker to change direction. Quote:
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I have not tried shooting while moving. I have, however, trained in "moving off the X" while drawing. See this. I have a trick knee, limited stamina, and more frequently than I should, bouts of gout. But I guarantee you that I would never trust my luck to standing still if I were being attacked. A bood blackthorn walking stick helps with mobility, and if push comes to shove (pun intended) it would be a good thing to have for anyone. Quote:
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March 23, 2015, 09:04 PM | #54 | |||||||||||
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For slow-fire range practice, I strive for 20-moa groups, which is good enough to hit the IDPA -0 thoracic zone out to and beyond the game's 35-yd maximum distance. As I ratchet up the complication factor, thus imposing stress on me, I will accept larger groups as the simulated situation warrants. In a real-world situation at 5 yd, I'd be very happy hitting the bad guy anywhere with each shot, which would make me far better than the average LEO, who misses about 75% of his shots. Using the IDPA target as an anatomical model, the largest circle one can inscribe within the -3 zone is one with a 17.375-inch diameter, which at 5 yd is a whopping 332-moa target. In the hope of achieving that when needed I will train by striving to shoot much tighter groups than that. Last edited by Limnophile; March 24, 2015 at 09:43 PM. |
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March 24, 2015, 08:54 AM | #55 | |||
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Posted by Limnophile:
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The Best Defense takes a realistic incident and shows, through role-playing, how the defender's actions can fail, and then shows a couple of better responses. Theey than show some training exercises appropriate to the kinds of situations at hand. In the Pharmacy Robbery, a pharmacist drew from a stationary position and fired at an armed robber. In so doing, he got shot, shot an employee, and put a bullet though a glass window with innocents on the other side--a very bad situation. When the scenario was replayed, just a little movement on the part of the defender caused the robber to miss, allowed the pharmacist to shoot the robber without putting his employee at risk, and put the bullets into a hard backstop. They then went through the exercises on a range with "good guy" and "bad guy" targets set up and a "backstop" to show how one would go about it. It was a very good portrayal, and for those who have not seen it, it is worth buying the DVD. I had not seen it before the one occasion in which I stumbled into an obvious robbery about to happen. The first thing I did was to think "backstop" and "clear shots" (foreground and background), and move accordingly. Fortunately the robber aborted the attempt. Did I do the right thing? No! I should have reacted to the car situated unnaturally outside and driven away without entering the store. I am not alone in my immediate thought process. There was a recent post here on TFL in which Pax related having gone through the same step. Quote:
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Pincus will tell you that if you are shooting tight groups you are shooting too slowly. Consider this. Somewhere, and you do will know where, within that three dimensional mass moving at you are a few small internal targets that you can shoot that would help effect a reasonably quick shot. If you miss them--not good. The only way you would have any hope of hitting any of them is to put several shots into the attacker very rapidly indeed. Striving for small groups will not help you there. |
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March 24, 2015, 09:46 AM | #56 |
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OldMarksman,
It was/ is John Farnam that advocates "stitching them up the middle", going for the Aorta and up into the Thoracic triangle. Best, Rob |
March 24, 2015, 10:17 AM | #57 | |
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Posted by robmkivseries70:
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I'm not sure I could do that very well however. I do not know how practical it would be if the attacker were not facing you and reasonably upright. Visualize someone rounding the pumps or the pick-up next to your car, leaning forward and moving obliquely with respect to your position. I do not know what Farnham would recommend, but in my case, I would have my hands full moving to gain distance and if possible, nearby cover (pump or car), drawing, presenting, and shooting. And I most seriously doubt that I would be thinking "aorta". I don't know for sure, but I think it likely that I would be working to hit anywhere on the upper torso several times very quickly. Understand that I am not a highly trained defensive shooter. |
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March 24, 2015, 11:30 AM | #58 |
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The frontiersmen Daniel Boone and Simon Kenton practiced to perfection running through the forest, zig-zagging and ducking trees, while reloading and shooting their flintlock rifles.
Talk about getting off the X. Practicing anything long enough and well enough yields success, whether it's standing pat and shooting or getting out of the way and shooting. Or both, depending on circumstances.
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March 24, 2015, 11:52 AM | #59 | |
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Farnam does advocate the zipper, but not as an uncontrolled "oh I'll accept a hit anywhere" kind of thing. He wants you to place your shots on your target, not just throw them out there somewhere in the target's general vicinity. He absolutely does not accept the kind of self-justification that says, "Well, I was aiming for the upper center chest, but one of my shots went low and would have hit maybe in the navel and that would kill the bad guy too since that's right above where the femoral arteries split off, so I'm good." That's just denial. And we don't accept denial. If you made a mistake, own it. Then get better. If you're told to put your shots inside a 5x13 rectangle, and there are shots outside the rectangle, then you weren't controlling your shots. You must control your shots. Regardless of the specific aimpoint you choose, you should be hitting that aimpoint to the degree of accuracy (and with the exact amount of speed) the situation requires. In class, on paper, he accepts students getting 80% of their shots within a fairly small hit zone; anything outside that small zone is a miss (and we're talking misses by inches, not yards). The reason he accepts that percentage in class is that he wants students to push their current speed limits and regards anything faster than that as a waste of bullets that builds bad habits. You want to be in the habit of hitting your target. Then he takes you out to the rotating targets and expects you to draw while moving, get your hits on moving 8 inch plates at approximately 7 yards, move abruptly away from your previous position at least every four shots, move again whenever you are not actively shooting (eg, when clearing stoppages or reloading) -- and continue to fire those precisely-timed shots until you have successfully spun the rotator, which is itself not an easy task. The man does good work. Glad to have had an opportunity to learn from him. pax |
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March 24, 2015, 01:13 PM | #60 |
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It is best to have options when one is in a SHTF situation...
whether attacked by another gun or any weapon... First, if they've already drawn, you can't outdraw, so RUN DUCK & DODGE. Second...range... If at extreme close range (within 6 feet), you better know Gun Fu. If you don't, learn as much as you can. Fast. Sometimes it is better to disarm than gunfight. And by disarm, I mean tear their gun arm off and beat 'em with it. Oh, wait, not everyone here is a 6'3 gorilla?? Well, ok, easy-peasy tool that almost anyone can do is an elbow dislocate. Learn it. Learn how to dislocate a wrist. Takes even less pressure. Learn how to dislocate a thumb...you get the idea, just get their gun. Learn how to block the gun to the outside and then throat punch or ridgehand their throat. Yes, that's lethal, and yes, that's the point. If past 6 feet and you can't safely close the distance in time to stop the shot, run duck dodge. The more room between you and them, the better. Find cover, get it between you & them, draw yours, return fire when opportunity presents. Please, do not evade like Paul Blart...that's just sad. Bulletproof clothing...like Miguel Caballero or Aspetto (Virginia)... they make some of the best bullet protection clothing known to man. Very comfy in all weather, light & airy when you need to be... blazers, suits, comfort wear
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March 24, 2015, 01:25 PM | #61 |
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Pax, that sounds like an excellent course.
Shooting at moving plates at seven yards should certainly help with shooting skills, but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to know how it would translate directly to defiensive training. I see people shooting at seven yards all the time. If we accept that distance, or thereabouts, as at least a somewhat valid general indicator of ability (in the context of a, o, and j) with an edged weapon, it would seem to me that a more likely shooting distance would be somewhere between three and five yards, including whatever distance the defender may have been able to move...... Interestingly, there are old police training videos that show officers firing revolvers at targets seven yards away. They were made long before Dennis Tueller conducted any time and distance studies. |
March 24, 2015, 10:42 PM | #62 | ||||||
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As to not recognizing an oddly parked car as a threat, I can understand that. Making the connection after the fact shows how experience offers big benefits. Just as on the battlefield, experienced combat vets have a much better chance of survival than do new replacements. In lieu of actual combat -- whether military, law enforcement, or civilian self defense -- the best experience is gained through training that is as realistic as prudent safety allows. Quote:
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The definition of "small" is relative. I personally have defined "small" to be 20 moa at the range, and 332 moa in a real encounter -- at 5 yd these equate to 1.1-inch and 17-in groups, respectively. Under any training or gaming scenario I would consider 332 moa unacceptable, as any training scenario will be less stressful than an actual threat. More stress = less precision. |
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March 24, 2015, 10:49 PM | #63 | |
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Last edited by Limnophile; March 24, 2015 at 10:58 PM. |
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March 25, 2015, 08:40 AM | #64 | |
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A parked car headed outward by the door of a convenience store near a highway, with a person in the driver's seat, is a pretty obvious danger sign. It would not be prudent to ignore it. Best to drive on, and maybe come back later. That has been covered in the literature and on television programs. What I saw was a car pointed the wrong way in a parking lot, with a very nervous driver looking around furtively, repositioning his car for the purpose, as it turned out, of gaining better visibility into the store. Obviously very suspicious, but since the store was at least two miles from any highway, with heavily trafficked city streets and with stop lights and stop signs on every road, I did not think foul play likely. But my risk assessment turned out to be faulty. I made a mistake by going in, but what I had observed enabled me to recognize the threat very quickly indeed. Back to the topic: my long familiarity with the staff led me to decide against non-intevention, but the layout made movement necessary to afford a clear shot with no one between me and the would-be robber, with no one behind him, and with a hard backstop. I would never have considered drawing without those conditions. Not for a moment. My movement and attention evidently spooked him. The pocket holster I was using provided me with a distinct advantage under the circumstances, but I soon came to realize that the J-Frame was not the best--I would not want to try one in the exercises that pax described in the John Farnham course. There may be this who can do that, but I cannot. Were the situation to arise today, I would have to manage a shirt-tail to access a firearm in an OWB holster. I would probably, if things did not conspire to prevent it, try to do that surreptitiously, with my strong side turned away from the parent threat. |
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March 25, 2015, 09:01 AM | #65 | |
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One of the things about citing instructors to bolster an argument is that you can get X instructors and get X different arguments. Which one is right? Pincus says that if you are shooting tight groups that you are shooting too slowly? Okay, Clint Smith doesn't want you shooting any faster than getting good shots (palm-sized group). While Hackathorn believes in making good shots and striving toward good COM shots, he also believes any shots that hit the target are certainly better than shots that do not hit the target. As Pax noted, Farnam would have you zipper people. Wow, look at that. Four different instructors with four different approaches to marksmanship in self defense.
You can pick and choose a singular example such as the pharmacy incident and base your whole defense around it, but it is hardly a universal situation. It provides a singular situational example. What was it Hackathorn said..."You should move, unless you shouldn't." Sometimes moving will put you in a less advantageous position or put noncombatants into a more dangerous situation. And what did Clint Smith say..."I can't tell you what your self defense situation will be. Nobody can." Sounds like Limnophile has worked out a plan that is based on his personal situation. One of the things I really like about the Tueller drill is how unrealistic it is to the normal self defense situation that is likely to occur. In the Tueller drill, the defender has already decided s/he is going to shoot, but has not drawn a gun and has apparently decided to not draw a gun and not already be move to a better position. In fact, the defender has apparently decided that the best course of action is to not move until the attacker moves. It is just a race between the attacker covering the distance and the defender drawing (who may or may not be moving). In the real world, if you have already made the decision to shoot somebody at that range and don't have your gun out, you have likely made a serious mistake. If you have decided that you might have to shoot the person, haven't drawn, and you aren't already working your way to a better defensive position, you have likely made a mistake. So if you are in an actual Tueller situation, you have already screwed up. Quote:
When you run the Tueller drill where the defender doesn't know s/he is going to be attacked in advance of the start of the drill that he doesn't know the person running towards him is an attacker, he loses every time. That is because the Tueller drill removes all that time from the OODA loop that normally would be lost. Being a quick draw is a great skill, but most people lose a LOT more critical time in the OOD part of the loop than the A in real life situations. Attackers usually don't start their running attacks from 21 feet or more when they do attack. They start from much closer. They don't first announce that they have a knife and give the defender the opportunity to go through the OOD portion of the loop first, then start the charge. This is one of my favorite "Tueller Drill" fail examples. Paul J. Spencer was an arson suspect who led cops on a brief 4 mile high speed chase before wrecking. The video picks up the action from there. You can watch the clock counter in the lower right corner. It gives whole seconds. You need to know that this was a felony chase by multiple officers and that officers immediately drew guns BEFORE the attack started as per procedure in such a chase culmination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xWczh1L8ns He starts his attack, knife in hand, at 05:01:59 and disappears off camera at the end of 05:02:02/3 (clock doesn't show the 3 for some reason) and the defensive shooting doesn't start until 05:02:05. Officer Ron Dombkowski was stabbed/slashed in the face and Spencer was put down by 7 of 10 shots from officers Jeff Webb and Joe Fisher. Based on the distance estimated in the scene, Spencer undoubtedly covered his Tueller 21 before going off camera. According to PoliceOne, Spencer covered 22 feet before the stabbing started and was shot AFTER the officer was stabbed. http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapo...slashing-face/ That the officers took the better part of 6 second to shoot Spencer is a testament to the fact that draw time (guns already drawn) was inconsequential here and yet Spencer still stabbed one target and that target FAILED to shoot Spencer. Even in a situation where draw time was not an issue in this drill, the attacker managed to hit his mark. A good draw speed is great, but there is a WHOLE LOT more that goes into self defense shooting than the draw speed example of Tueller. Like the El Presidente, the Tueller Drill is a drill and not a scenario.
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March 25, 2015, 09:55 AM | #66 | |||||||||||||
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Posted by Double Naught Spy:
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It doe not take much in the way of speed and distance analysis and anatomical assessment to lead one to the clear conclusion that, in such situations, speed is of the essence and that a palm-size group would not provide much benefit at all. One who thinks about it will come to those conlusions without listening to any instructors. But Pincus' entire philosophy is centered on the idea of a balance of speed and precision. In other situations, precision takes priority. His targets also have small circles on them. Obviously, shots that miss have little positive value and quite a bit of potential negative value. Quote:
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..I did not mention the "Tueller Drill". I simply described a realistic scenario and performed some time and distance calculations to illustrate the problems that may arise from standing still. Dennis Tueller did that too, a little differently and for a different purpose, but that does not change the point. Quote:
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March 25, 2015, 12:09 PM | #67 |
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With a charging attacker at 5 yards...I might shoot from retention or just use pointed fire, instead of sighted fire from a pistol or rifle; meanwhile picking & concentrating on a small target inside the target itself.
You can point shoot practice on moving targets by having someone shoot paintballs across your line of fire --- as long as your bullets hit the backstop. They do sell a moving spring loaded target frame that is mounted on rails, that can have the target approach the shooter; or have it move laterally.
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March 25, 2015, 03:43 PM | #68 |
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My head is spinning after reading all this.
Maybe you should --- just think. |
March 25, 2015, 04:39 PM | #69 | |
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Posted by Jim567:
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Think about avoidance, and think about what is happening when avoidance has failed. But it is necessary to have some trained responses ready to go. A surprise attack is not the time for improvisation. |
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March 27, 2015, 07:11 AM | #70 |
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I'm a thinkin, In some of the taticool classes in California, don't they teach a mixture of line dancing and defensive handgun. Keep moving, keep moving.
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March 27, 2015, 11:08 PM | #71 |
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This may sound a little childish and goofy but I have been playing a little airsoft with my son. He is much more athletic and movable than I am but I actually feel like I am becoming at least a little better at moving and shooting. I know its not the same as live fire practice but I feel that there is technique that is coming back to me. We have done lots of stuff around the back yard but also a few indoor stuff (when the MRS is gone of course).
As I stated above I don't think this will replace live fire but it does require you to shoot and move. p.s. it also lets me feel younger.
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March 27, 2015, 11:42 PM | #72 |
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Nothing childish about it.
The military uses simunition and airsoft for training, along with video simulations. It's easier to learn from mistakes than with live fire.
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