To crimp or not to crimp? - Page 2

Slamfire · August 30, 2013, 08:26 AM

Quote:

It seems as though the ones that have never crimped preach the evils of crimping the loudest, go figure.

Told Ya!

Yet, those that have tried it Prove otherwise. No theories, or supposition, just range time and actual data.

Nothing succeeds like success. You want to “prove” to a skeptical world that crimping improves accuracy?; win matches. Start attending mid range matches, 600 yards, then progress to long range matches, 1000 yards. I recommend shooting F class as you can shoot any caliber off a bipod and sandbags, which eliminates a lot of the human element, but you have to place your bullets inside a half MOA target. Then win. Start winning and tell everyone about the advantages of squished bullets. If you can consistently win Long Range matches with your squished bullets you will gain a following. People copy what the winners do, because, nothing succeeds like success.

Which is why no one, except duffers, crimp match bullets.

steve4102 · August 30, 2013, 10:14 AM

I've seen your photos of how you crimp.

Nuff Said!

William T. Watts · August 30, 2013, 12:13 PM

If a bullet doesn't have a cannalure it should not be crimped, if it does have a cannalure a light crimp only. The only ammunition I crimp are those rounds that go thru a lever gun's tubular magazine! William

Bart B. · September 1, 2013, 07:52 AM

Slamfire says no one, except duffers, crimp match bullets.

Others who crimp usually don't make any statistically significant tests to prove improved accuracy, either.

Slamfire · September 1, 2013, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Others who crimp usually don't make any statistically significant tests to prove improved accuracy, either.

I have shot some pretty crappy ammunition out to 300 yards and shot cleans on the two MOA target.

But, get out to 600 yards, crappiness really shows up on target.

I shoot ten shot groups with my 22 LR rifles, prone with a sling, with irons, at 100 yards, smaller than the groups presented as “proof” of the virtues of crimp dies. As has been said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I heard one, but I have not seen the other.

Bart B. · September 1, 2013, 03:58 PM

Good lots of .22 rimfire match ammo used to shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. . .with crimped in bullets.

But the best of them nowadays have a hard time staying under 3/4 inch at 100.

Slamfire · September 1, 2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Good lots of .22 rimfire match ammo used to shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. . .with crimped in bullets.

But the best of them nowadays have a hard time staying under 3/4 inch at 100.

I believe the crimp is a source of inaccuracy with rimfire ammunition. Flyers happen, based on what I see through my scope, match rimfire ammunition is not as consistent as centerfire. But nothing is going to change as the 22 LR dates back to 1887 and changing chambers and ammunition to remove the crimp is simply not going to happen.

I have heard, and seen acceptance targets for old Anschutz rifles, and of course, the records for all things small bore prone (except senior class) were all set in the 70's. So I have heard from a number of old timers that the ammunition back then was better.

I have seen enough of these 70's vintage acceptance targets and the ammunition of the day shot very well

1971 M54

1976 M1413

But this year at the Nationals I asked Lones Wigger about rifles and ammunition. His opinion, today's ammunition and rifles are better.

He has a lot more National Small Bore prone Championships under his belt than mine (0), so his opinion is worth considering.

tobnpr · September 1, 2013, 07:00 PM

What's a crimp?

I could see the utility in semi-auto's in combat where the rifles and magazines get abused and could affect seating depths.

Never understood it for any other usual application, especially match grade ammo.

If you want precise neck tension on your bullets, get bushing dies. Far more consistent than a crimp could ever achieve.

Bart B. · September 1, 2013, 07:05 PM

Slamfire:

Quote:

But this year at the Nationals I asked Lones Wigger about rifles and ammunition. His opinion, today's ammunition and rifles are better.

That may well be. Last time I shot smallbore with Wigger was a few years ago when he stayed in my trailer with me at the range. We talked about ammo and barrels and he mentioned that good stuff was hard to find.

If rifles and ammo are better these days than before the 1980's explosion at an Eley plant caused rimfire ammo makers to change their priming compound, then all those records set in the '70's may need better marksmanship to beat them today than those who set them back then.

steve4102 · September 2, 2013, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Others who crimp usually don't make any statistically significant tests to prove improved accuracy, either.

Do you have any statistically significant tests, or any tests, that show crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die degrades accuracy.

I posted one test that showed improvement in three different cartridges in three different rifles with 50 rounds each. Watchoo got?

Bart B. · September 2, 2013, 06:56 PM

Steve, the best thing I've got is word directly from the mouths of two folks who tested hundreds of thousands of rounds shooting Sierra's Bullets for accuracy tests and quality control. Both said their tests proved any type of crimp on bullets in centerfire rifle cases degrades accuracy.

One (bless his departed soul) said if handloads are pretty bad to begin with, crimping will often straighten up the case necks and they'll shoot more accurately afterwords; but never in the ones an twos at 100 yards like uncrimped bullets do. Crimping dies that grip more of the case neck will bend them from crooked to straighter, but the bullets are still unbalanced from the process. Crimping bullets deforms them. Non-uniformly all the way around. Why shoot unbalanced bullets when balanced ones shoot more accurate?

And knowing that no top notch rifle competitor would even dream of crimping bullets in case mouths. Some folks know better because of their understanding of what causes both best and worst accuracy.

One of the best "accuracy" based web sites is www.accurateshooter.com. Check them out and see what they have to say about crimping bullets for best accuracy.

steve4102 · September 2, 2013, 08:46 PM

I'll take that as a definite NO. No data, not even a small sample of actual data.

Bart B. · September 2, 2013, 09:01 PM

Right you are Steve; I've got no real data.

I don't need any. Neither does anyone else who knows what happens to a bullet when it's jacket is deformed.

steve4102 · September 2, 2013, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Right you are Steve; I've got no real data.

I don't need any. Neither does anyone else who knows what happens to a bullet when it's jacket is deformed.

Explain this.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

And This, 10 rounds each target.

I'm all eyes and ears, show me anything that shows the proper use of the LFCD degrades accuracy.

Facts brother Bart, Facts, no theory, no opinions, no he said she said, just real Physical data.

Anything? Something?

boondocker385 · September 3, 2013, 07:57 PM

So I have no dog in this fight but by scientific methods you don't have any data.... range, conditions, rest used, etc are all missing...

steve4102 · September 3, 2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boondocker385

So I have no dog in this fight but by scientific methods you don't have any data.... range, conditions, rest used, etc are all missing...

Colt AR-15, Stock.
Range 100 yards.
Powder 748
Primer Rem 7 1/2
Brass, LC
Scope, Bushnell 6500, 2.5-16x42
Caldwell Rock BR front rest
Caldwell High rise rear bag.
Bullet 55gr Misdsouth JHP, no cannelure.
Crimp, LFCD medium light
Weather conditions, forgot.
Fired round robin 5 shot groups.
Brass trimmed to 1.755
Dies, Forster FL two die set.
Primer pocket uniformed with Sinclair Tool.
Flash holes de-burred with Lyman tool.
Barrel left dirty and fouled from the last two trips to the range.
BCG cleaned and lubed.
4-6 cups coffee in Morning.
Mosquitoes, kept to a Min with bug-dope.

September 1, 2013, 07:52 AM	#29
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Slamfire says no one, except duffers, crimp match bullets. Others who crimp usually don't make any statistically significant tests to prove improved accuracy, either. Last edited by Bart B.; September 1, 2013 at 09:12 AM.

September 1, 2013, 07:00 PM	#33
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	What's a crimp? I could see the utility in semi-auto's in combat where the rifles and magazines get abused and could affect seating depths. Never understood it for any other usual application, especially match grade ammo. If you want precise neck tension on your bullets, get bushing dies. Far more consistent than a crimp could ever achieve. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

September 2, 2013, 06:56 PM	#36
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Steve, the best thing I've got is word directly from the mouths of two folks who tested hundreds of thousands of rounds shooting Sierra's Bullets for accuracy tests and quality control. Both said their tests proved any type of crimp on bullets in centerfire rifle cases degrades accuracy. One (bless his departed soul) said if handloads are pretty bad to begin with, crimping will often straighten up the case necks and they'll shoot more accurately afterwords; but never in the ones an twos at 100 yards like uncrimped bullets do. Crimping dies that grip more of the case neck will bend them from crooked to straighter, but the bullets are still unbalanced from the process. Crimping bullets deforms them. Non-uniformly all the way around. Why shoot unbalanced bullets when balanced ones shoot more accurate? And knowing that no top notch rifle competitor would even dream of crimping bullets in case mouths. Some folks know better because of their understanding of what causes both best and worst accuracy. One of the best "accuracy" based web sites is www.accurateshooter.com. Check them out and see what they have to say about crimping bullets for best accuracy. Last edited by Bart B.; September 2, 2013 at 07:25 PM.

August 30, 2013, 10:14 AM	#27
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I've seen your photos of how you crimp. Nuff Said!

August 30, 2013, 12:13 PM	#28
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	If a bullet doesn't have a cannalure it should not be crimped, if it does have a cannalure a light crimp only. The only ammunition I crimp are those rounds that go thru a lever gun's tubular magazine! William

September 1, 2013, 03:58 PM	#31
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Good lots of .22 rimfire match ammo used to shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. . .with crimped in bullets. But the best of them nowadays have a hard time staying under 3/4 inch at 100.

September 2, 2013, 08:46 PM	#37
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I'll take that as a definite NO. No data, not even a small sample of actual data.

September 2, 2013, 09:01 PM	#38
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Right you are Steve; I've got no real data. I don't need any. Neither does anyone else who knows what happens to a bullet when it's jacket is deformed.

September 3, 2013, 07:57 PM	#40
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	So I have no dog in this fight but by scientific methods you don't have any data.... range, conditions, rest used, etc are all missing...