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Old December 12, 2011, 07:04 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
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At that point, their take on what should constitute a crime may have a sudden shift...
My take is, and will continue to be, that Mexican carrying a condition 1 "safe-action" style pistol with no manual safeties is negligent. If you are a 25+ year veteran and a police supervisor, I just cannot fathom how you could not know this was not an acceptable practice.

Had there been some compelling reason to take that risk - a possible robbery in progress for example, I could cut the guy some slack. As it is, it looks like he just engaged in a stupid practice that not so long ago killed a father in front of his children. If he gets a misdemeanor out of it, that is really a long way from the worst outcome of what he did.

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Drivers kill people in preventable accidents, and get reamed in civil court, yet typically they do not face criminal records or jail times.
Drivers in non-injury accidents routinely receive Class-C misdemeanors here in Texas (tickets/fines). If you injure or kill someone, you can not only be charged with higher level offenses, you can be arrested right there on the spot and taken to jail. I don't know where you are at; but I'm betting that drivers that kill or injure people end up with criminal records there too.
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Old December 12, 2011, 07:10 PM   #27
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Drivers in Florida and Georgia only seem to draw criminal charges when: intoxicated; racing; traveling at speeds defined by statute as reckless; running red lights; or if they leave the scene.

A driver in FL put my dad in the hospital with damaged disks in his neck and back via an unsafe merge onto I-4. He then left the scene. A Samaritan followed the guy, who exited, re-entered opposite direction, and was pulled over by FHP while rubber-necking. Because he was stopped adjacent to the scene, he was not even charged with leaving...
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Old December 12, 2011, 07:23 PM   #28
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And yet you could fail to maintain adequate following distance on a wet road, fail to get enough traction, and rear-end a stopped car - yet not draw criminal charges unless the state decided you weren't only too close, but reckless. Drivers kill people in preventable accidents, and get reamed in civil court, yet typically they do not face criminal records or jail times.
In this example the driver doing the rear-ending would be cited for too fast for conditions, failure to have his vehicle under proper control, or some similar charge. He would be fined accordingly; and, if someone was killed or injured and there was any evidence of recklessness or negligence he would be charged accordingly.

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And yet I feel we as a nation tend to overcharge and/or criminalize way too many things. This is especially true when guns are involved.
MLeake I agree that the guy was stupid. While we would probably agree on many of the things Government should stay out of, carrying a weapon in a way that puts others at risk is reckless. When guns are involved we have have the responsibility of doing everything right. When we don't we endanger ourselves and others, and we give the knotheads in Government reason to clamor for more control. Peace.
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Old December 12, 2011, 07:31 PM   #29
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How to make a 642 or 442 trigger cycle in holster-less pocket carry:

Forget a house or car key in that pocket, then insert gun. That'll do it.

I have more then one pocket. One is just for my 642. I have other pockets for the other junk.

I started the pocket carry when I was in LE. That was Anchorage and being Alaska, it got nippy in spots. We had Parka's and even though they had a zipper side to get to the gun, everthing hung up. So I started carrying a snubby in my parka pocket. (nothing else in that pocket). I figured it worse came to worse I could shoot from the pocket and if I felt the need, I kept my hand in my pocket. No one knew I was "ready". No one saw the revolver.

The same thing, only now its my pants pocket. Nothing to hang up on, and nothing to catch the trigger.

I don't ask others to do this, but I've been doing it for nearly 40 years and ain't shot my self yet.
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Old December 12, 2011, 07:40 PM   #30
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Some folks might want to get off the high horse long enough to consider that someday it might be them, remote though the possibility may seem, that screws up.

At that point, their take on what should constitute a crime may have a sudden shift...
So what is your point? If I negligently discharge a weapon at the mall I will accept the consequences.

I am not advocating jail time for the good Sergeant. A fine and disciplinary action seems reasonable to me.
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Old December 12, 2011, 07:51 PM   #31
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A misdemeanor carries the potential for up to one year of jail time in most states; in some states, it could be up to three years in jail.

This is different from a fine or disciplinary action, don't you think?

If Wisconsin wanted to suspend his CCW, or his department wanted to put him on rubber gun duty pending remedial training, that wouldn't bother me. Misdemeanor charges are excessive.
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Old December 12, 2011, 08:26 PM   #32
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Would a year, or even three in jail be excessive if someone had been killed? Yes, in this circumstance that would be excessive, and that is why there is flexibility in the system. I understand you're not happy with the system, and sometimes I'm not either, but until something better is found I'll take my chances with this one.
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Old December 12, 2011, 08:32 PM   #33
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This is an excellent example of why pistols need manual safeties and why the 1911 is still the safest one out there after 100-years of use.

Moral: if you carry a pistol that doesn't have a manual safety, carry it in a secure holster. Revolvers are safer due to ther heavier trigger and passive safeties, but you still have to be careful w/ them.

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Old December 12, 2011, 08:41 PM   #34
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^ HK P7 is safer than a 1911 or BHP, IMO.

I had a Colt Mustang and my wife's purse had a pocket that fit it perfectly, I packed it for her for a business trip - loaded it and put the safety on and zipped it in it's pocket, when she came back I took it out of the pocket and the manual safety was off - flipped down.

It didn't discharge, but it was a lesson to me that even though that purse compartment fit the Mustang perfectly - the gun needed a holster.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:08 PM   #35
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Protect your dick wear a mic.

Perfect holster for this type of pistol with this type of carry.

This guy overlooked something when he walked out the door with a gun that operates the way it does, carrying the way he was.

Just a good thing no one was seriously injured.

This guys superiors should give him a wood gun like on The Other Guys.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:31 PM   #36
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Can one of the posters who pocket carries without a holster explain why? A Nemesis pocket holster costs less than $20, it breaks up the outline of the gun, it protects the trigger, as well as most of the rest of the gun, it keeps the gun oriented in the proper direction for drawing, and it keeps your pockets from wearing out.
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Old December 12, 2011, 11:11 PM   #37
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Can one of the posters who pocket carries without a holster explain why? A Nemesis pocket holster costs less than $20, it breaks up the outline of the gun, it protects the trigger, as well as most of the rest of the gun, it keeps the gun oriented in the proper direction for drawing, and it keeps your pockets from wearing out.
I can't speak for others. I tried pocket holsters and never found one that suited me. It created more bulk, and looked like something weird.

I carry my 642 in my pocket (without anything else) and it looks no more bulky then my keys, pocket knife, and pocket watch in my other pocket. In fact if you notice it at all, just looks like junk like the other pocket.

I have had a problem with it "shifting" The always sets the same way where when I put my hand in my pocket, I get the grip.

Its fast too, faster then any holster I've tried. I can get it out pretty quick. I don't draw or use it on public ranges, I only shoot it in my back yard range, just in case some one gets nervous.

If I diside to shoot a match with my 642 I use a belt holster.

The only problem I've had in the last, almost 40 years, with this method is, a couple times while in the shower my wife forgets and grabs my pants and heads toward the washing machine without checking the pockets. Now she pretty much leaves my pants alone until I empty the pockets and toss them in the hamper.

When I use holsters I've found them inconvient, taking them off in the evening 'n such. My pocket revolver is always with me, I hang my pants on the beadpost at night keeping it handy.

Not saying pocket carry is for everyone, it just the way I do it.

OH by the way. I was at our club meeting tonight and someone had a Glock. I dry fired it a bit and its not quite like my 642. I would never carry a glock without a holster. The trigger is a bit different, not even considering the size.
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Old December 13, 2011, 12:35 AM   #38
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I don't ask others to do this, but I've been doing it for nearly 40 years and ain't shot my self yet.
I bet Sgt. Shotdafloor said something similar...."I been dong this 25 years and I ain't shot myself yet."

By the Grace of God, sez me.


"Yet."

Maybe you won't ever have an ND. kraigwy..... but you go touting your ability to carry sans holster and someone a bit less ..... "disciplined" ...... about keeping a pocket just for the gun will read that and say, "Kraigwy can do it- hell, he makes his own guns, he must kow what he's talkin' about.... and now we have some newb that thought he was an aspiring Kraigwy and was really just another Plaxico...... only the foot he puts a bullet through is as likely to be some bystander's as it is his own...... it ain't smart, so don't condone it.
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Old December 13, 2011, 09:02 AM   #39
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My grandfather carried for 66 years in the pocket with out a holster and never had any problems. He said he did not like how the holsters felt. He has now passed so I guess it is possible to not use a holster and never have an accident.

I carried for 11 years with out a holster and no incidents. It wasn't until I got a holster (as advised by this forum and my wife) that I ever had a problem. The stiff leather did not allow my shirt to move away from the gun when re-holstering it and the gun went off, Fortunately I was on my own land and no one got hurt (other than my pride).

I have switched holsters
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Old December 13, 2011, 09:41 AM   #40
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I don't see the big deal of carrying without a holster - so long as the gun is appropriate for the clothing you are wearing. I might have an objection if someone attempts to carry a Desert Eagle in the pocket of his jogging shorts.
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:30 AM   #41
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I carry a J-frame revolver in my (inexpensive but servicable) Mika pocket holster for 3-reasons:

1. It breaks-up the outline of the gun.
2. It keeps the muzzle from poking a hole in the bottom of my pocket.
3. It keeps the hammer from getting caught in the pocket and interfering w/ my draw.
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:44 AM   #42
Bartholomew Roberts
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Carrying without a holster can be done safely. My grandfather used to carry a single-action revolver in his pocket. Perfectly safe because it was a single-action and the hammer was down. You can carry the S&W M&P involved in this incident in condition 3 with no holster and it will be every bit as safe (and probably a bit safer from a drop safe perspective).

What you can't do without creating a much higher risk of negilgent discharge is carry a safe-action pistol in Condition 1 with the trigger exposed.
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Old December 13, 2011, 10:45 AM   #43
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Gotta kick my two cents in guys.

I do sometimes carry my S&W 4006 .40cal tucked in the back of my pants with no holster. This is a comfortable way for me to carry this gun, however mine does have a safety and it is always on when I carry in this fashion. I've done this for sixteen years without incident.
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Old December 13, 2011, 11:03 AM   #44
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I don't carry without a holster, but I no longer have a handgun suitable for doing so, either. In defense of kraigwy and others who make a considered and well-informed choice to carry in that manner, there is a whole heap of difference between the triggers of various revolvers and pistols. When I had a 642, I occasionally carried in that manner, but I wouldn't consider doing so with my Glock 26. Understanding the capabilities and limits of a given firearm seems to me to be much more valuable than making blanket statements.

My concern with the story in the OP is that it leaves the appearance that the officer was either misinformed, made poor decisions, or was too casual in his considerations and handling. I have a hunch that this may have been a case in which gun handling became so routine that it became thoughtless, which is something we would all do well to guard against.
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Old December 13, 2011, 12:27 PM   #45
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"Kraigwy can do it- hell, he makes his own guns, he must kow what he's talkin' about.... and now we have some newb that thought he was an aspiring Kraigwy and was really just another Plaxico......
Well in that case, I guess I wont discuss my days when I use to "run with scissors or talked to the bus driver when the bus was in motion"
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Old December 13, 2011, 12:55 PM   #46
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kraigwy, sorry, I wasn't trying to make a bad guy out of you. I was just pointing out that what may be a no-no to some may be ops normal to others; and that in the absence of statute or case law to the contrary, lack of a holster or safety does not in and of itself equal criminal negligence. I used you as an example of a reasonable, respected person.
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Old December 13, 2011, 01:10 PM   #47
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The issue isn't about holsters or not,,,

In my mind the issue is that the man allowed his gun to go out of his immediate control and a bad thing happened as a result of it.

This line of the statute applies here,,,
"Endangers another's safety by the negligent operation or handling of a dangerous weapon"

One can waistband carry for years and if nothing ever happens then negligence never happened.

But in this case something bad did happen,,,
So I think a charge is completely valid.

Mleake made a point that I am in some agreement with,,,
We may have become a society too eager to lay blame and deal out punishment.

In that light I will not call out for him to be hung out to dry,,,
But some sort of punitive sanction should be applied towards him.

The charge could just be "Stupid in Public",,,
He should not however be allowed to get off scott free.

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Old December 13, 2011, 01:14 PM   #48
TexasJustice7
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Kraigwy: I pocket carry my 642 without a holster. I tried ever way from Sunday to get it to fire (empty of course). Just don't see it. Not with a 642 anyway.
I pocket carry my S&W 642 airweigh too, but I have a Charter Arms holster
I bought for less than $20 for my CA Bulldog. I only use the CA holster for
the S&W and the Bulldog in a Galco paddle hoslter. My 642 has no hammer
or reclused, so I don't believe one like mine can go off from being dropped.
That CA holster works really well when I draw the gun, it stays in the pocket
because of the material its made out of. I don't think the guns accidentally
going off are revolvers, unless they are old ones.
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Old December 13, 2011, 01:28 PM   #49
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I don't think anyone has mentioned it, so I will. We keep talking about holster or not here (which i'm a fan of), but there's one more thing worth repeating. While it's not 100% clear that this happened, there's enough evidence to think it MIGHT have been the case that he caught the gun while it was falling.

Quote:
As he reached for the weapon, it went off, blowing a hole through his pants.
Most of us already know it, but don't catch that falling gun. It's infinitely more likely to go off if you catch it than if you just let it hit the floor.

If that's not quite what happened then so be it, but I'll throw that out there anyway.
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Old December 13, 2011, 01:59 PM   #50
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The only way a semi-auto should ever be carried in a pocket w/o a holster is if the chamber is empty.
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