Unusually short OAL

9miller · July 1, 2016, 10:26 AM

Hey guys, just got some 85gr gameking in I want to try out in my .243. I checked for my max OAL using the cleaning rod and the sharpie method and I'm touching lands at 2.57". Nosler 90gr Btips touch at 2.71. Is the ogive that far forward on the game kings? 2.57" seems unusual to me, this was a sample of 3 bullets as well.

mikld · July 1, 2016, 11:41 AM

Load up a dummy with each bullet using your dimensions and check the OAL dimensions against the bullet manufacturer's recommendations.

F. Guffey · July 1, 2016, 12:25 PM

Or you can learn to measure the distance from the rifling to the bolt face accurately with a method and or technique that have a cost of ZERO all that is required is shop skill and hand tools.

The only reason I measure the distance to the lands from the bolt face is to determine bullet jump; I am the fan of the running start. I helped a smith that build 4 magnificent rifles, he made the reamer etc. etc. and when finished one of the rifles came back, it just simply did not shoot accurately. He took the rifle here and there and even had the bore scoped nothing.

Finally he called me and asked me how I would go about determining what went wrong. I suggested the 'XERO COST' technique. The first thing he did was get onto the Internet and go straight to the stick method and he knew less when he finished than when he started.

That afternoon I decide he had a long throat in the chamber. I seated a 170 grain 270 bullet into one of his cases and pushed it out of the case and the bullet skidded down the throat .250"+ before the bullet contacted the lands.

And then he went home and got onto the Internet to try and purchase all the tools we used. He called later and wanted to know what the tools were called and where he could find them. I love name dropping and mentioning those entire expensive tool manufacturer and it helps if I can name some of the technical people but for me it is humbling when I have to reply with "Homemade".

F. Guffey

243winxb · July 1, 2016, 12:51 PM

The Nosler 90gr Btips just have a longer nose. The ogive that contacts the rifling*, will always be at the same length, its the tip that is short or long. [IMG]

[/IMG]

T. O'Heir · July 1, 2016, 01:26 PM

"...at 2.57"..." Something ain't right. Max OAL for .243 is 2.710". A 90 grain bullet from anybody shouldn't be touching anything at that length. Been loading 90 grain Speers to 2.710" for eons myself.
Oh, and that OAL is NOT measured to the ogive. It's from the pointy part to the flat part on the end of the cartridge. That's how the nice people at SAAMI measure OAL's too. No ogives involved. Forget ogives.
The cleaning rod and a sharpie is used to determine rifling twist.

243winxb · July 1, 2016, 01:31 PM

When loading for a factory chamber, start with the bullets base/shank at the neck shoulder junction. This is the full diameter of the bullet. A boatail will be below the neck shoulder junction. The loaded rounds must fit the magazine and chamber. This may not work for all cartridges, but works for the 243 win.

9miller · July 1, 2016, 01:43 PM

Thank you for all the responses so far guys,
However, I'm not sure I asked this correctly based on the answers I have received.
I've been reloading all my ammo for 5 years now, I know how the OAL is measured, and I've used the cleaning rod method and sharpie method many times to determine it. Reference the Frankford arsenal tool to see, however I make my own clamps.
Both methods determine my OAL for a 85gr sierra gameking (#1530) is 2.57". This is in a savage axis .243.
I guess the question I'm asking is, is this usual of the gameking ogive profile to produce such a short OAL? Sierra calls for a 2.65" OAL with this bullet, and I'm 8 hundredths away from that mark.

F. Guffey · July 1, 2016, 02:11 PM

Thank you for all the responses so far guys,
However, I'm not sure I asked this correctly based on the answers I have received.

I am sure one of the responses had to do with maximum as in maximum case overall length when the length includes the case and bullet.

F. Guffey

9miller · July 1, 2016, 05:38 PM

You are correct sir, and that is not the intended question. I fully understand what max length is, how to get it, and what it includes.
The question is if the gameking generally produces the short max OAL I am receiving.

243winxb · July 1, 2016, 06:47 PM

My standard OAL from case head to tip of the 85 gr Sierra is 2.660" But when i had a custom barrel, i had to seat to a shorter OAL. A short throat is good, as you will burn it out if you shoot a lot of target. SAAMI list minimum 2.540" and maximum 2.710" OAL here. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf I would not seat the ogive of the bullet below the case mouth, as neck tension would be lowered. If factory ammo will not chamber, bullet jamming into the rifling, return to Savage.

F. Guffey · July 2, 2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

I would not seat the ogive of the bullet below the case mouth, as neck tension would be lowered.

Backing the bullet away from the rifling could reduce pressure to a point; at that point pressure will increase as the bullet is shoved further into the case. And neck tension, I would use neck tension if I had a tension gage that measured tension. I use bullet hold, when it comes to bullet hold I want all the bullet hold I can get. I know it sound cool when reloaders talk about reducing bullet hold because they do not want to put anything into a bind. When I pull the trigger I am going to hit the inside of the case with 55,000psi+ so I can forget about being kind to my cases.

F. Guffey

9miller · July 2, 2016, 11:47 AM

Well .243winxb,
It seems savage gave me a good deal with the Short throat. I've been researching deeper and it seems savages and Tikka rifles most notably have shorter throats than their competitors chambered in .243. Some are saying they have to seat the 85gr gameking fairly deep as well, noting in the 2.58-2.60, so it seems I'm not experiencing a bad lot of bullets, which was my main concern. Thank you for sharing your experience with this bullet with me.

Mr. Guffey,
Thank you for your input as well. I'm going to back off .005" of the lands for my load work up using Imr 4064 first, if that doesn't work out well I'll try h414 which I've had good experiences with prior and maybe ramshot hunter if the ladder isn't of success either. I don't want to be in the lands, or any deeper in the case than I need to be because of the pressure spike that may occur. As a general rule, I try to seat as long as possible at first to attempt to reduce pressure and increase my velocity potential.

My 90gr nosler btip load with h414 is sub MOA capable. Hopefully the gameking load will produce as well. I'll be trying the ladder test method for the first time with this load work up.

Thank you all, and as always, enjoy the bench!! I'll report back if I have positive results!!

July 1, 2016, 11:41 AM	#2
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Load up a dummy with each bullet using your dimensions and check the OAL dimensions against the bullet manufacturer's recommendations. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

July 1, 2016, 12:51 PM	#4
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	243 win The Nosler 90gr Btips just have a longer nose. The ogive that contacts the rifling, will always be at the same length, its the tip that is short or long. [IMG][/IMG] Last edited by 243winxb; July 1, 2016 at 12:56 PM. Reason: ogive that contacts the rifling

July 1, 2016, 01:26 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...at 2.57"..." Something ain't right. Max OAL for .243 is 2.710". A 90 grain bullet from anybody shouldn't be touching anything at that length. Been loading 90 grain Speers to 2.710" for eons myself. Oh, and that OAL is NOT measured to the ogive. It's from the pointy part to the flat part on the end of the cartridge. That's how the nice people at SAAMI measure OAL's too. No ogives involved. Forget ogives. The cleaning rod and a sharpie is used to determine rifling twist. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 1, 2016, 01:31 PM	#6
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Trying to reach the lands in factory chambers, mostly a waste of time. When loading for a factory chamber, start with the bullets base/shank at the neck shoulder junction. This is the full diameter of the bullet. A boatail will be below the neck shoulder junction. The loaded rounds must fit the magazine and chamber. This may not work for all cartridges, but works for the 243 win.

July 1, 2016, 06:47 PM	#10
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	243 win Sierra 85 gr HPBT # 1530 My standard OAL from case head to tip of the 85 gr Sierra is 2.660" But when i had a custom barrel, i had to seat to a shorter OAL. A short throat is good, as you will burn it out if you shoot a lot of target. SAAMI list minimum 2.540" and maximum 2.710" OAL here. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf I would not seat the ogive of the bullet below the case mouth, as neck tension would be lowered. If factory ammo will not chamber, bullet jamming into the rifling, return to Savage.

July 1, 2016, 10:26 AM	#1
9miller Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 169	Unusually short OAL Hey guys, just got some 85gr gameking in I want to try out in my .243. I checked for my max OAL using the cleaning rod and the sharpie method and I'm touching lands at 2.57". Nosler 90gr Btips touch at 2.71. Is the ogive that far forward on the game kings? 2.57" seems unusual to me, this was a sample of 3 bullets as well.

July 1, 2016, 12:25 PM	#3
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Or you can learn to measure the distance from the rifling to the bolt face accurately with a method and or technique that have a cost of ZERO all that is required is shop skill and hand tools. The only reason I measure the distance to the lands from the bolt face is to determine bullet jump; I am the fan of the running start. I helped a smith that build 4 magnificent rifles, he made the reamer etc. etc. and when finished one of the rifles came back, it just simply did not shoot accurately. He took the rifle here and there and even had the bore scoped nothing. Finally he called me and asked me how I would go about determining what went wrong. I suggested the 'XERO COST' technique. The first thing he did was get onto the Internet and go straight to the stick method and he knew less when he finished than when he started. That afternoon I decide he had a long throat in the chamber. I seated a 170 grain 270 bullet into one of his cases and pushed it out of the case and the bullet skidded down the throat .250"+ before the bullet contacted the lands. And then he went home and got onto the Internet to try and purchase all the tools we used. He called later and wanted to know what the tools were called and where he could find them. I love name dropping and mentioning those entire expensive tool manufacturer and it helps if I can name some of the technical people but for me it is humbling when I have to reply with "Homemade". F. Guffey

July 1, 2016, 01:43 PM	#7
9miller Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 169	Thank you for all the responses so far guys, However, I'm not sure I asked this correctly based on the answers I have received. I've been reloading all my ammo for 5 years now, I know how the OAL is measured, and I've used the cleaning rod method and sharpie method many times to determine it. Reference the Frankford arsenal tool to see, however I make my own clamps. Both methods determine my OAL for a 85gr sierra gameking (#1530) is 2.57". This is in a savage axis .243. I guess the question I'm asking is, is this usual of the gameking ogive profile to produce such a short OAL? Sierra calls for a 2.65" OAL with this bullet, and I'm 8 hundredths away from that mark.

July 1, 2016, 02:11 PM	#8
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Thank you for all the responses so far guys, However, I'm not sure I asked this correctly based on the answers I have received. I am sure one of the responses had to do with maximum as in maximum case overall length when the length includes the case and bullet. F. Guffey

July 1, 2016, 05:38 PM	#9
9miller Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 169	You are correct sir, and that is not the intended question. I fully understand what max length is, how to get it, and what it includes. The question is if the gameking generally produces the short max OAL I am receiving.

July 2, 2016, 11:47 AM	#12
9miller Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 169	Well .243winxb, It seems savage gave me a good deal with the Short throat. I've been researching deeper and it seems savages and Tikka rifles most notably have shorter throats than their competitors chambered in .243. Some are saying they have to seat the 85gr gameking fairly deep as well, noting in the 2.58-2.60, so it seems I'm not experiencing a bad lot of bullets, which was my main concern. Thank you for sharing your experience with this bullet with me. Mr. Guffey, Thank you for your input as well. I'm going to back off .005" of the lands for my load work up using Imr 4064 first, if that doesn't work out well I'll try h414 which I've had good experiences with prior and maybe ramshot hunter if the ladder isn't of success either. I don't want to be in the lands, or any deeper in the case than I need to be because of the pressure spike that may occur. As a general rule, I try to seat as long as possible at first to attempt to reduce pressure and increase my velocity potential. My 90gr nosler btip load with h414 is sub MOA capable. Hopefully the gameking load will produce as well. I'll be trying the ladder test method for the first time with this load work up. Thank you all, and as always, enjoy the bench!! I'll report back if I have positive results!!