what was I thinking?

hooligan1 · October 31, 2014, 06:05 AM

Well I learned a valuable lesson last week, I'm at the range testing loads and my loads wantedbto lock my bolt down, to the extent of having to smack bolt handle with palm sharply to extract fire cases....What the heck? And yhe fired cases had zero soot around them like normal....All this with the manuals minimum charge..?

Traced all my steps, and figured out where I went wrong. Some of my brass for one reason or another wouldn't chamber easily, so I took measurements of the length, shoulder ,so on, and determined I had not set shoulder back any, or enough for easy feeding.
I then took decapping pin and expander out of my die and lubed up the primered cases and set the shoulders back just a few thousands, in that process I must have crushed my shoulders a tad and then the bullet tension was extreme, and so when I seated those long bullets it not only crushed the shoulders a tad more it created more runout in my necks.....so what I had was cartridges that werr tight going in, they also didnt want to extract.

I couldnt salvage twenty pieces of primed brass, but also when at the range we would have one or two flyers that were 2"'s out of group causing a lot of head scratchin,,,, and then it hit me that the pressures were probably obscene with just minimal powder charge...

Problem solved, and a valuable learning process for myself......
Excuse me while I DIG MY HEAD FROM THE CAVITY!!!

F. Guffey · October 31, 2014, 08:10 AM

Quote:

I then took decapping pin and expander out of my die and lubed up the primered cases and set the shoulders back just a few thousands, in that process I must have crushed my shoulders a tad and then the bullet tension was extreme, and so when I seated those long bullets it not only crushed the shoulders a tad more it created more runout in my necks.....so what I had was cartridges that werr tight going in, they also didnt want to extract.

Hooligan1, you ask: "What was I thinking?" I have to say 'I do not know'. When I size a case I use a full length sizing die, the sizing die offers case body support while supporting the shoulder and neck meaning there is no way I can crush the shoulder. I can crush the shoulder when seating bullets because the seating die does not offer case body support.

When seating bullets my favorite design is the seating die that centers the case mouth with the base of the bullet, that excludes all seaters that require the bullet to ride the case mouth up and into the seating die. For a small advantage it helps to bevel the inside of the case mouth.

F. Guffey

hooligan1 · October 31, 2014, 09:38 AM

And the crush probably happened when i seated because of extensive neck tension..

Jim243 · October 31, 2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

because of extensive neck tension

That does sound reasonable. There are flairing dies you can use to avoid this.

Jim

**Unclenick** · October 31, 2014, 11:22 AM

The Sinclair mandrel die body and appropriate mandrel would bring the neck back out to size and it does not tend to pull the necks off-axis. It's just inside sizing, from that standpoint.

Also, you can use a Flex Hone to open the sizing die neck up so the tool sizes your necks correctly without needing an expander. A number of folks do that to avoid the expander pulling necks off axis. Some have several sizing dies with differently opened necks so they can pick the one a particular lot of brass needs. This also reduces how much the neck is worked at each loading cycle, because you are not over-squeezing it down, then expanding it out again, but rather only just squeezing as much as needed to grip the bullet and no more. The standard die is made to handle worst case thin brass neck walls, but if you don't have those, you can avoid the extra brass working and more frequent annealing needed to keep overworked brass alive.

F. Guffey · October 31, 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

because of extensive neck tension

I have bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. When it comes to neck tension:

Quote:

That does sound reasonable.

That does not sound reasonable to me. I can not measure neck tension, I can measure interference fit or crush. Bullet hold is measur4ed in pounds, a crush fit or interference fit is measured in thousandth.

As I said, I want my bullets to be centered on the case mouth, when I place a bullet on the case mouth and then raise the ram I am amazed the bullet seats and survives the ride to the top. Then there is crimping when seating. I do not crimp bottle neck cases, crimping can reduce bullet hold and, I am the fan of bullet hold.

On another forum, they were using a gage type seating die to determine the amount of effort required to seat a bullet. The gage was graduated in pounds, not tensions. Then I had one of those retrospect moments, I have hand seating dies that go back 50+ years, the reloader seated bullets with the palm of the hand. And if the same reloader wanted to know how many pounds of effort was required to seat a bullet they could place the round on a scale, seat the bullet and read the scale at the same time.

Remember to return the scales after use.

F. Guffey

hooligan1 · November 3, 2014, 06:23 PM

I believe it was unreasonable neck tension bullet hold that helped create too much pressure causing "hard bolt lift". And I wish I had chronoed that load to see just how fast those 140 grain Accubonds were movin..

**44 AMP** · November 4, 2014, 10:39 PM

your post confuses me a bit, but whether you call it neck tension or bullet pull or something else, I don't see how it can have any significant effect at raising the pressure in the case on firing, PROVIDED everything else is proper.

Now, when something else is not correct, it can seem like it is neck tension that is the problem, but it may not be.

As mentioned, the sizing die cannot "crush" your case so it won't chamber, it simply doesn't have any room for the brass to be crushed into. Not so the seating die. Collapsed, or bulged (crushed) shoulders can happen in the seating die, especially if you have mis adjusted the die for crimp.

Neck tension is important, for keeping the bullet in place in the case, and for keeping it uniform in the chamber, until the moment of firing. Then the pressure swells the case (including the tight neck) and the neck releases the bullet. At this point case neck tension on the bullet is essentially zero.

HOWEVER, this presupposes that the case neck brass has somewhere to go, in order to expand and release the bullet. Normal chamber, proper length brass, no problem. Brass too long, the case extends into the barrel where there is no clearance for it to expand and release the bullet. THAT can raise pressures in the case, maybe drastically. Same result if your bullet is touching the lands. Higher than normal pressures result. If there is even a few thousandths of an inch room for the bullet to move before it hits the lands, excessive pressures don't result.

Any chance you cases were a tad too long?
Any chance your bullet was touching the rifling (which would also make the bolt very hard to close)?

Any chance you had both of these at the same time?

hooligan1 · November 5, 2014, 06:40 AM

Amp, it was the sizing die that rolled the shoulders a bit and made them tight in my chamber, and I dont think they were long. But when I seated bullets there was a discernible difference in the feel of the seating, like it took more effort than normal.
Also I set my seating dies witha a nickle between shell holder and die so crimp doesnt come into play....RCBS die, and with expander removed made it just tight enough to compound my other faults creating too much chamber pressure, with a minimum powder charge, and we also had a hell of a time pullin those critters with a kinetic bullet puller, took like 4-5 hard raps on concrete.....Im movin on, with 75 oncefired .270 win brass that I resized and trimmed last night. And I checked, (after trimming) the new sized cases fit nicely into chamber, no hard bolt.....thanks for all replies fellas, I'm not gonna rush my sizing process anymore with this cartridge, after fireforming this brass that would give me 125, good pieces to use hunting or practicing, load testing etc,, which is fine for now....

**44 AMP** · November 6, 2014, 12:10 PM

Quote:

I then took decapping pin and expander out of my die and lubed up the primered cases and set the shoulders back just a few thousands, in that process I must have crushed my shoulders a tad and then the bullet tension was extreme, and so when I seated those long bullets...

Ok, did you, prior to seating the bullets, run the expander through the resized case necks?

You don't say you did that....

That might be the source of your trouble right there....

Quote:

it was the sizing die that rolled the shoulders a bit and made them tight in my chamber, and I dont think they were long. But when I seated bullets there was a discernible difference in the feel of the seating, like it took more effort than normal.

I think you are mis-assigning the blame to the sizer die. Based on what you said (and please correct me if I get anything wrong), you took out the decapper/expander, and sized the brass, then you loaded it, and found the shoulders "rolled" (you mean bulged? oversized, right?)

The sizer die cannot do this. The seater die can. As a guess, based on what you said, what I think happened was that by not running the expander through the case necks, sizing them left the necks undersize to fit the bullets (seriously tight), this is what caused the extra hard feel when you seated the bullets. It ALSO was too much for the unsupported (in the seater die) case body, and the shoulders "rolled" (bulged). In your case, the too tight fit of the bullets in the neck caused the same result as improper crimping. (bulged/wrinkled case where its not supported, in the seater die)

This is just a guess, but it seems likely to me.

condor bravo · November 6, 2014, 01:17 PM

The crushed shoulder could also have been the result of over-crimping which is a common cause. Back off some with the seating die. If bullet seating continues to be difficult with the expander plug back in the sizing die, consider getting a Lyman M die for the caliber that is used to put slight flare on the case mouth that should facilitate seating. An M die is around 20 dollars and available from Midway. With a flare applied to the case neck, the seating die should be readjusted so the crimping shoulder within the seating die removes the flare while at the same time maintains correct seating depth.

CarJunkieLS1 · November 6, 2014, 06:50 PM

I saw where you pulled the bullets and set the shoulders back. I saw where you removed the primer pin and expander ball to keep from pushing out the primers. I would have removed the primer pin and kept the expander ball. When you resized the brass, the brass has to go somewhere and it goes up into the necks. Also what is your case length is it over SAMMI max?

hooligan1 · November 6, 2014, 08:38 PM

Apologies for saying sizing die, it Was the seating die, and no crimp even in play because the distance between shellholder and die is a nickle.........the "too tight " neck when seating the bullets created the bulge, which I still should have caught that. I just finished resizing 75 .270 brass to 6.506, and without a hitch....

Amp sorry for the fouled up explanation.

hooligan1 · November 11, 2014, 06:29 AM

Also as we resized .270, oncefired range brass we noticed that any range brass with a discernible bulge just above the case head had to measure less than .466.
Also the cases that were fatter there required the 6.5-06 die to be adjusted to a hard bump at camover to resize this bulge...
Now I know exactly what it means when brass whips my press!

I honestly believe my path through all of this has educated me on various symptoms of improperly sized and seated brass....thanx fellas!

October 31, 2014, 06:05 AM	#1
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	what was I thinking? Well I learned a valuable lesson last week, I'm at the range testing loads and my loads wantedbto lock my bolt down, to the extent of having to smack bolt handle with palm sharply to extract fire cases....What the heck? And yhe fired cases had zero soot around them like normal....All this with the manuals minimum charge..? Traced all my steps, and figured out where I went wrong. Some of my brass for one reason or another wouldn't chamber easily, so I took measurements of the length, shoulder ,so on, and determined I had not set shoulder back any, or enough for easy feeding. I then took decapping pin and expander out of my die and lubed up the primered cases and set the shoulders back just a few thousands, in that process I must have crushed my shoulders a tad and then the bullet tension was extreme, and so when I seated those long bullets it not only crushed the shoulders a tad more it created more runout in my necks.....so what I had was cartridges that werr tight going in, they also didnt want to extract. I couldnt salvage twenty pieces of primed brass, but also when at the range we would have one or two flyers that were 2"'s out of group causing a lot of head scratchin,,,, and then it hit me that the pressures were probably obscene with just minimal powder charge... Problem solved, and a valuable learning process for myself...... Excuse me while I DIG MY HEAD FROM THE CAVITY!!! __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

October 31, 2014, 09:38 AM	#3
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	And the crush probably happened when i seated because of extensive neck tension.. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

October 31, 2014, 11:22 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The Sinclair mandrel die body and appropriate mandrel would bring the neck back out to size and it does not tend to pull the necks off-axis. It's just inside sizing, from that standpoint. Also, you can use a Flex Hone to open the sizing die neck up so the tool sizes your necks correctly without needing an expander. A number of folks do that to avoid the expander pulling necks off axis. Some have several sizing dies with differently opened necks so they can pick the one a particular lot of brass needs. This also reduces how much the neck is worked at each loading cycle, because you are not over-squeezing it down, then expanding it out again, but rather only just squeezing as much as needed to grip the bullet and no more. The standard die is made to handle worst case thin brass neck walls, but if you don't have those, you can avoid the extra brass working and more frequent annealing needed to keep overworked brass alive. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 3, 2014, 06:23 PM	#7
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	I believe it was unreasonable neck tension bullet hold that helped create too much pressure causing "hard bolt lift". And I wish I had chronoed that load to see just how fast those 140 grain Accubonds were movin.. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

November 4, 2014, 10:39 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	your post confuses me a bit, but whether you call it neck tension or bullet pull or something else, I don't see how it can have any significant effect at raising the pressure in the case on firing, PROVIDED everything else is proper. Now, when something else is not correct, it can seem like it is neck tension that is the problem, but it may not be. As mentioned, the sizing die cannot "crush" your case so it won't chamber, it simply doesn't have any room for the brass to be crushed into. Not so the seating die. Collapsed, or bulged (crushed) shoulders can happen in the seating die, especially if you have mis adjusted the die for crimp. Neck tension is important, for keeping the bullet in place in the case, and for keeping it uniform in the chamber, until the moment of firing. Then the pressure swells the case (including the tight neck) and the neck releases the bullet. At this point case neck tension on the bullet is essentially zero. HOWEVER, this presupposes that the case neck brass has somewhere to go, in order to expand and release the bullet. Normal chamber, proper length brass, no problem. Brass too long, the case extends into the barrel where there is no clearance for it to expand and release the bullet. THAT can raise pressures in the case, maybe drastically. Same result if your bullet is touching the lands. Higher than normal pressures result. If there is even a few thousandths of an inch room for the bullet to move before it hits the lands, excessive pressures don't result. Any chance you cases were a tad too long? Any chance your bullet was touching the rifling (which would also make the bolt very hard to close)? Any chance you had both of these at the same time? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 5, 2014, 06:40 AM	#9
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	Amp, it was the sizing die that rolled the shoulders a bit and made them tight in my chamber, and I dont think they were long. But when I seated bullets there was a discernible difference in the feel of the seating, like it took more effort than normal. Also I set my seating dies witha a nickle between shell holder and die so crimp doesnt come into play....RCBS die, and with expander removed made it just tight enough to compound my other faults creating too much chamber pressure, with a minimum powder charge, and we also had a hell of a time pullin those critters with a kinetic bullet puller, took like 4-5 hard raps on concrete.....Im movin on, with 75 oncefired .270 win brass that I resized and trimmed last night. And I checked, (after trimming) the new sized cases fit nicely into chamber, no hard bolt.....thanks for all replies fellas, I'm not gonna rush my sizing process anymore with this cartridge, after fireforming this brass that would give me 125, good pieces to use hunting or practicing, load testing etc,, which is fine for now.... __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

November 6, 2014, 01:17 PM	#11
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	The crushed shoulder could also have been the result of over-crimping which is a common cause. Back off some with the seating die. If bullet seating continues to be difficult with the expander plug back in the sizing die, consider getting a Lyman M die for the caliber that is used to put slight flare on the case mouth that should facilitate seating. An M die is around 20 dollars and available from Midway. With a flare applied to the case neck, the seating die should be readjusted so the crimping shoulder within the seating die removes the flare while at the same time maintains correct seating depth. Last edited by condor bravo; November 6, 2014 at 04:34 PM.

November 6, 2014, 06:50 PM	#12
CarJunkieLS1 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 686	I saw where you pulled the bullets and set the shoulders back. I saw where you removed the primer pin and expander ball to keep from pushing out the primers. I would have removed the primer pin and kept the expander ball. When you resized the brass, the brass has to go somewhere and it goes up into the necks. Also what is your case length is it over SAMMI max?

November 6, 2014, 08:38 PM	#13
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	Apologies for saying sizing die, it Was the seating die, and no crimp even in play because the distance between shellholder and die is a nickle.........the "too tight " neck when seating the bullets created the bulge, which I still should have caught that. I just finished resizing 75 .270 brass to 6.506, and without a hitch.... Amp sorry for the fouled up explanation. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

November 11, 2014, 06:29 AM	#14
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,586	Also as we resized .270, oncefired range brass we noticed that any range brass with a discernible bulge just above the case head had to measure less than .466. Also the cases that were fatter there required the 6.5-06 die to be adjusted to a hard bump at camover to resize this bulge... Now I know exactly what it means when brass whips my press! I honestly believe my path through all of this has educated me on various symptoms of improperly sized and seated brass....thanx fellas! __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.