44 special heip

Franklin7X57 · February 1, 2009, 04:30 PM

I want to download the 44 special, I have a marlin 44 mag. I'm thinking something with bullseye,(because I have it). I've read about light loads going boom, because of the "air space". If you reverse a SWC and seat it like a Wadcutter, that would take up space. But would there be accuracy problems? Any starting point on a load would help, looking for a cat sneeze load.

**Mike Irwin** · February 2, 2009, 03:46 PM

You want to download the .44 Special, or you want to download your .44 Magnum TO .44 Special performance parameters?

If you are using lead bullets, look to Trail Boss. It's a wonderful powder.

Hook686 · February 2, 2009, 06:47 PM

Have you checked with Alliant ?

Franklin7X57 · February 2, 2009, 07:07 PM

I'm trying to get a quiet load. The rifle is 44 mag., but thought using 44 special cases would be better. Looking for 500-600 ft/sec?? trying to mirror the 44 russian, the only data I can find on the russian is 200 grain bullet. Trying to use a heavier bullet 240+.

RidgwayCO · February 2, 2009, 07:13 PM

You're looking for 500-600 fps out of a rifle?! This wouldn't be for Cowboy Action events, would it...?

IMHO, be very, very careful. With such low pressure rounds, it's extremely easy to stick a bullet in the barrel without knowing it. And then the next round fired causes a "major overpressure event."

**Mike Irwin** · February 2, 2009, 08:13 PM

OK, if that's what you're shooting for, you DEFINITELY want to check out Trail Boss.

Japle · February 2, 2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

I've read about light loads going boom, because of the "air space".

That one comes from the old standard .38 Special target load of a 148 gr WC and 2.7 gr of Bullseye. Every now and then, some shooter would drop the hammer on a double load. 5.4 gr of Bullseye is too much. Rather than admitting he'd screwed up, the shooter would blame "flashover", claiming that the powder was spread out along the wall of the case and the primer lit it all off at once.

Extensive experiments by the loading companies failed to reproduce this.

On the other hand, some powders are more sensitive to what's called "loading density" than others. Clays and Titegroup are not sensitive and Trail Boss is so bulky it's not a problem.

FWIW, a 200 gr bullet and 3.7 gr of Clays in .44 Spl cases gives me 760 fps in my 4" M29 and excellent accuracy.

**Unclenick** · February 2, 2009, 11:30 PM

The phenomenon is detonation. The Finish Gunwriter's web site has a photo of an FN action blown to pieces by a load of something like 2.9 grains of Vihtavuori N320, IIRC, which is close to Bullseye in performance. Mind you, that gun was chambered in .308, and that is a very, very large volume with a really tiny charge of powder. Detonation seem to require that condition. I've never heard of detonation occurring in something as small as a pistol case.

The "Bullseye surprise" phenomenon Japle referred to is, as he says, actually due to double charging a .38 special case with a wadcutter seated deeply in the case and leaving very little powder space to absorb some extra pressure. There was a magazine article on Bullseye Surprise that concluded it was so. Unfortunately, the authors erroneously concluded that because the .38 Special situation proved to be double charges, all reported detonation was due to double charges. However, the .308 event cannot be explained by a mere double charge of such a small quantity of powder. I think I figured it needed to be charged something like 9 times over with that small dose of powder just to get normal .308 chamber pressure with the bullet that was used.

I used to shoot a lot of 240 grain Hornady SWC's in my 3" Charter Bulldog over just 2.9 grains of Bullseye. It was before I got into casting. Airgun velocity, give or take, and good accuracy. I have an offhand group I fired with that combination that is under 2" at 25 yards. So slow that even the very soft swaged bullets don't lead.

Any light target load you work up in the .44 Special case can also be loaded in the .44 mag case without adjustment. You won't see a performance difference because the COL's of the two cartridges are essentially the same, which means the powder space in the case under the bullet base is the same regardless of which case you use. That space determines pressure and performance. The only purpose of the longer Magnum case is to prevent accidentally chambering a magnum load in a .44 Special chamber. I prefer to use magnum cases for target loads in .44 Mag chambers because it ensures I don't get lead fouling build-up in the throat that the shorter Special case allows and that can interfere with seating a magnum cartridge later.

Franklin7X57 · February 3, 2009, 09:26 AM

Thanks. I want a quiet pest control load. I'm thinking as long as I'm get compete penetration the extra ft/sec. is wasted with a hotter load, that's why i wanted a heavy bullet. I know that 500-600 may give me a stuck bullet and will have to adjust from there.

AlaskaMike · February 3, 2009, 04:47 PM

You may already be aware of this, but it bears mentioning that for extremely low velocities you should never use jacketed, and probably plated as well. Copper and other jacket materials are much harder than lead alloys and have more friction, and so will very efficiently help lodge the bullet in the barrel where a lead bullet will exit just fine.

I've used Lasercast 200 grain RNFP bullets over 6 grains of Clays in magnum brass in my Rossi 92. That's a nice soft load, but it sounds like it's still faster than you want. I'd personally not try to reduce velocity to less than 900 - 1000 fps from a rifle. If I did, I think I'd work the load down instead of what we normally do, which is work up. My reason for this is that I really, really don't like the idea of lodging a bullet in the barrel. Your experience and comfort level could certainly differ from mine--I've only been reloading for about 5 years now.

Mike

kyle663 · February 3, 2009, 05:03 PM

what kind of pests are we talking about? rats, cats, dogs? a 22 short would work just as good with less noise.

Franklin7X57 · February 3, 2009, 05:51 PM

I'm going to use cast bullets for sure. I'd never shoot a dog or cat, but coyotes aren't dogs

I'm going to work down for sure, but I'm not afraid of a stuck bullet. I've pulled, pushed muzzleloader bullets out. I know 500-600 ft/sec maybe unrealistic.

kyle663 · February 3, 2009, 09:35 PM

if your shooting under 50 yards a 22 in the head will drop a yote and at the speed your talking about in a 44 thats about the best range your gonna do with it.

kraigwy · February 3, 2009, 09:49 PM

Unless I missed it, no one answered the question. Regarding bulleye, 4.5 grns is a good mild load. Its the half way mark in Hornadys manuel so I would worry about not filling the case.

Somewhere I have loadings using (I believe 3.5 gns) with a 44 cal round ball for light gallery shooting. If I remember right it worked pretty good in my Model 29. Never shot it in a rifle.

Sport45 · February 3, 2009, 10:23 PM

I can't comment on Bullseye because I've never used it. I have used Titegroup with cast bullets in a 7.7jap with great results for low power loads lik you mention. It is advertised as being insensitive to position in the case and I found that to be true with a little bit (~4 to 5 grains) I think in a large case behind a 190gr cast bullet. Trail Boss, mentioned above, is another excellent suggestion.

Before you load up a bunch of backwards SWC's like full WC's you might want to see if sized, empty cases will feed in your rifle. Except for weight that's about what the rounds will be like. With the powders above I see no reason not to load then normally.

Franklin7X57 · February 5, 2009, 09:27 AM

Thanks everyone. I believe I'll try the Trail Boss first, 4.0 grains is listed about 675 in 8" barrel. That's close in pistol length anyway. I'll work down or up from there, sound being more important than speed.

crowbeaner · February 5, 2009, 09:38 PM

Try 5.5 to 6.0 grains of PB with a 245 grain bullet; don't shoot it in revolvers without checking your gun and manual.

Nnobby45 · February 5, 2009, 09:47 PM

Cowboy loads are usually light to begin with. You have at your fingertips, access to a ton of loading data for the .44 Special. Google, Google!

I've become fond of TiteGroup for pleasant to shoot loads in my M21, others have mentioned Trail Boss that has lots of good loads listed for it. Those loads in a carbine would be real mild.

Ozzieman · February 6, 2009, 02:50 PM

Having been there done that, I will warn you, most Marlin lever actions will not function with 44 specials. If you try it, be sure you have tools along and knowledge in how to dissemble the gun loaded.
What I ended up with is loading 44 mag with lowest loads of Herco. It’s a little over 700 FPS but the other problem is that at 500 fps even if you got something that would safely work, that is not going to be fast enough to stabilize the bullet very well.
For my Marlin I use a 240 Gr lead bullet and low level magnum charge of Herco.

RidgwayCO · February 9, 2009, 09:11 AM

Please don't tell my Marlin 1894S that it doesn't work with .44 Specials, because that's all it's ever seen or been used with. It eats 200gr LRNFPs loaded to about 1000 fps like candy. I had the barrel cut down to 16 1/2 inches to make it handier. It holds 9 rounds in the magazine and provides very comfortable and accurate shooting.

Now trying to get it to feed .44 Russians is an entirely different matter ...

February 1, 2009, 04:30 PM	#1
Franklin7X57 Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 33	44 special heip I want to download the 44 special, I have a marlin 44 mag. I'm thinking something with bullseye,(because I have it). I've read about light loads going boom, because of the "air space". If you reverse a SWC and seat it like a Wadcutter, that would take up space. But would there be accuracy problems? Any starting point on a load would help, looking for a cat sneeze load.

February 2, 2009, 06:47 PM	#3
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	Have you checked with Alliant ? __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides. Last edited by Hook686; February 2, 2009 at 06:59 PM.

February 2, 2009, 11:30 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The phenomenon is detonation. The Finish Gunwriter's web site has a photo of an FN action blown to pieces by a load of something like 2.9 grains of Vihtavuori N320, IIRC, which is close to Bullseye in performance. Mind you, that gun was chambered in .308, and that is a very, very large volume with a really tiny charge of powder. Detonation seem to require that condition. I've never heard of detonation occurring in something as small as a pistol case. The "Bullseye surprise" phenomenon Japle referred to is, as he says, actually due to double charging a .38 special case with a wadcutter seated deeply in the case and leaving very little powder space to absorb some extra pressure. There was a magazine article on Bullseye Surprise that concluded it was so. Unfortunately, the authors erroneously concluded that because the .38 Special situation proved to be double charges, all reported detonation was due to double charges. However, the .308 event cannot be explained by a mere double charge of such a small quantity of powder. I think I figured it needed to be charged something like 9 times over with that small dose of powder just to get normal .308 chamber pressure with the bullet that was used. I used to shoot a lot of 240 grain Hornady SWC's in my 3" Charter Bulldog over just 2.9 grains of Bullseye. It was before I got into casting. Airgun velocity, give or take, and good accuracy. I have an offhand group I fired with that combination that is under 2" at 25 yards. So slow that even the very soft swaged bullets don't lead. Any light target load you work up in the .44 Special case can also be loaded in the .44 mag case without adjustment. You won't see a performance difference because the COL's of the two cartridges are essentially the same, which means the powder space in the case under the bullet base is the same regardless of which case you use. That space determines pressure and performance. The only purpose of the longer Magnum case is to prevent accidentally chambering a magnum load in a .44 Special chamber. I prefer to use magnum cases for target loads in .44 Mag chambers because it ensures I don't get lead fouling build-up in the throat that the shorter Special case allows and that can interfere with seating a magnum cartridge later. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 3, 2009, 05:03 PM	#11
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	what kind of pests are we talking about? rats, cats, dogs? a 22 short would work just as good with less noise. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 3, 2009, 09:35 PM	#13
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	if your shooting under 50 yards a 22 in the head will drop a yote and at the speed your talking about in a 44 thats about the best range your gonna do with it. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 2, 2009, 03:46 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	You want to download the .44 Special, or you want to download your .44 Magnum TO .44 Special performance parameters? If you are using lead bullets, look to Trail Boss. It's a wonderful powder.

February 2, 2009, 07:07 PM	#4
Franklin7X57 Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 33	I'm trying to get a quiet load. The rifle is 44 mag., but thought using 44 special cases would be better. Looking for 500-600 ft/sec?? trying to mirror the 44 russian, the only data I can find on the russian is 200 grain bullet. Trying to use a heavier bullet 240+.

February 2, 2009, 07:13 PM	#5
RidgwayCO Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 244	You're looking for 500-600 fps out of a rifle?! This wouldn't be for Cowboy Action events, would it...? IMHO, be very, very careful. With such low pressure rounds, it's extremely easy to stick a bullet in the barrel without knowing it. And then the next round fired causes a "major overpressure event."

February 2, 2009, 08:13 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	OK, if that's what you're shooting for, you DEFINITELY want to check out Trail Boss.

February 3, 2009, 09:26 AM	#9
Franklin7X57 Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 33	Thanks. I want a quiet pest control load. I'm thinking as long as I'm get compete penetration the extra ft/sec. is wasted with a hotter load, that's why i wanted a heavy bullet. I know that 500-600 may give me a stuck bullet and will have to adjust from there.

February 3, 2009, 04:47 PM	#10
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	You may already be aware of this, but it bears mentioning that for extremely low velocities you should never use jacketed, and probably plated as well. Copper and other jacket materials are much harder than lead alloys and have more friction, and so will very efficiently help lodge the bullet in the barrel where a lead bullet will exit just fine. I've used Lasercast 200 grain RNFP bullets over 6 grains of Clays in magnum brass in my Rossi 92. That's a nice soft load, but it sounds like it's still faster than you want. I'd personally not try to reduce velocity to less than 900 - 1000 fps from a rifle. If I did, I think I'd work the load down instead of what we normally do, which is work up. My reason for this is that I really, really don't like the idea of lodging a bullet in the barrel. Your experience and comfort level could certainly differ from mine--I've only been reloading for about 5 years now. Mike

February 3, 2009, 05:51 PM	#12
Franklin7X57 Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 33	I'm going to use cast bullets for sure. I'd never shoot a dog or cat, but coyotes aren't dogs I'm going to work down for sure, but I'm not afraid of a stuck bullet. I've pulled, pushed muzzleloader bullets out. I know 500-600 ft/sec maybe unrealistic.

February 3, 2009, 09:49 PM	#14
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Unless I missed it, no one answered the question. Regarding bulleye, 4.5 grns is a good mild load. Its the half way mark in Hornadys manuel so I would worry about not filling the case. Somewhere I have loadings using (I believe 3.5 gns) with a 44 cal round ball for light gallery shooting. If I remember right it worked pretty good in my Model 29. Never shot it in a rifle. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 3, 2009, 10:23 PM	#15
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I can't comment on Bullseye because I've never used it. I have used Titegroup with cast bullets in a 7.7jap with great results for low power loads lik you mention. It is advertised as being insensitive to position in the case and I found that to be true with a little bit (~4 to 5 grains) I think in a large case behind a 190gr cast bullet. Trail Boss, mentioned above, is another excellent suggestion. Before you load up a bunch of backwards SWC's like full WC's you might want to see if sized, empty cases will feed in your rifle. Except for weight that's about what the rounds will be like. With the powders above I see no reason not to load then normally. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

February 5, 2009, 09:27 AM	#16
Franklin7X57 Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 33	Thanks everyone. I believe I'll try the Trail Boss first, 4.0 grains is listed about 675 in 8" barrel. That's close in pistol length anyway. I'll work down or up from there, sound being more important than speed.

February 5, 2009, 09:38 PM	#17
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Try 5.5 to 6.0 grains of PB with a 245 grain bullet; don't shoot it in revolvers without checking your gun and manual. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

February 5, 2009, 09:47 PM	#18
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Cowboy loads are usually light to begin with. You have at your fingertips, access to a ton of loading data for the .44 Special. Google, Google! I've become fond of TiteGroup for pleasant to shoot loads in my M21, others have mentioned Trail Boss that has lots of good loads listed for it. Those loads in a carbine would be real mild.

February 6, 2009, 02:50 PM	#19
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Having been there done that, I will warn you, most Marlin lever actions will not function with 44 specials. If you try it, be sure you have tools along and knowledge in how to dissemble the gun loaded. What I ended up with is loading 44 mag with lowest loads of Herco. It’s a little over 700 FPS but the other problem is that at 500 fps even if you got something that would safely work, that is not going to be fast enough to stabilize the bullet very well. For my Marlin I use a 240 Gr lead bullet and low level magnum charge of Herco.

February 9, 2009, 09:11 AM	#20
RidgwayCO Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 244	Please don't tell my Marlin 1894S that it doesn't work with .44 Specials, because that's all it's ever seen or been used with. It eats 200gr LRNFPs loaded to about 1000 fps like candy. I had the barrel cut down to 16 1/2 inches to make it handier. It holds 9 rounds in the magazine and provides very comfortable and accurate shooting. Now trying to get it to feed .44 Russians is an entirely different matter ...