|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 12, 2013, 12:56 PM | #26 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario! |
||
May 12, 2013, 01:40 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
The main point, not enough officers! You are dealing with criminals, with hide gun shirts on. There is no such things as pot busts, visiting uncles, family members etc. You have to assume you are approaching danger!
Everything/person/vehicle/bush you have to clear on the way in. It does not have to take for ever, but it must be thorough, then the Officer on your six is checking as well. Strolling in? Not so safe. Maybe the walk to talk Officer might have a pistol, but second wave, back up, M4 in hand. All with radio communication. The only time to stroll? When you are going home. |
May 12, 2013, 03:06 PM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
People could fear that the government was over arming for a police-state and that would not do anything for gaining or maintaining trust that the government, local or otherwise, was not gearing up. They would have had more police had there been an an actual warrant as well. More than likely sheriff's.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario! |
|
May 12, 2013, 04:49 PM | #29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
|
Quote:
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. |
|
May 12, 2013, 06:31 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
if a Cop needs Hi Cap pistols, so do we, hence my Glock 19 (16 rounds ready to go) malfunction, or whatever, a spare G17 magazine on the belt!
Not to much to carry. And everyone, a bright Surefire LED Flashlight, day or night, sat next to that spare mag. |
May 12, 2013, 10:07 PM | #31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,429
|
7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video
Quote:
That's my exact setup there Brit! And sometimes even... Also can't forget... |
|
May 13, 2013, 03:16 AM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Great minds...
|
May 13, 2013, 08:50 AM | #33 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Head on a swivel...
This is what the USMC DIs & cadre mean when they say; "keep your head on a swivel" .
Not to nit-pick or play Monday morning QB(even when it is Mon morning, ), the tactical officer/narco agent should have scan for threats as he went towards the door. Cover agents or SWAT members in a undercover unit could have done a intel sweep prior to the main raid & IDed the male subject in the vehicle. Not to be picky either, but in many cases, you can "tell" if a vehicle near you is occupied, unless the car had dark tints or the Miami cop's view was blocked, he may have seen the subject or part of the subject in the front seat. As other military & spec ops trainers say too; the battlefield is 360, so keep that in mind. ALWAYS scan for threats, even if you think the main subject is down or secured. "Seeded" back-up or buddies or what I call; "yard-birds" may pop up and cause more problems. It's common in some LE ops or security incidents. CF |
May 13, 2013, 07:18 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 213
|
7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video
All points taken. I concede that I may have been a little too critical of many things.
I still think that the middle officer letting the potential suspect out of his sight was a possibly lethal mistake though. How about this scenario. Middle LEO loses sight of original suspect who disappears behind right vehicle. Suspect then pulls a pistol and shoots middle officer from the side. He is now in a position to engage two other officers from behind. Being as how one bad guy has already pulled a gun and is shooting at this point, how far fetched could this actually be? |
May 13, 2013, 07:48 PM | #35 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
|
I'll be very critical. They blew the whole deal because the cops went on what looked to be a raid but one guy was late in the red pick up and the cop in the white car wasn't paying attention/parked in wrong spot and the first cop that walks to the door is not even looking around for a threat.
They under estimated the bad guys and it got one of them seriously wounded. Maybe they will send a real team on future raids. 10 men ready to do battle if need be. 10 men so all angles are covered front,back and sides. That's my opinion and its a trained one. Drugs are big money business and people are willing to die over it,just like the video proved. The guys in the video look like they should have showed up after the raid to search the house........not conduct the raid. |
May 13, 2013, 08:29 PM | #36 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
Well, without further criticizing the officers, I will say this: I forwarded a link to the Captain in charge of our training division.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
May 13, 2013, 08:34 PM | #37 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
hot wash; orange county fl sheriff office gunfight...
In the late 2000s deputies in the Orange County Sheriffs Office got into a massive gun fight with over 300 rounds fired. It was in a stash house/drug house that had a 911 hang up.
A few deputies were wounded & a few subjects were shot. It was a huge mess. The event showed that any LE op can go sideways very quickly. CF |
May 13, 2013, 08:46 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
Tunnel vision kills, looks to me like they got hyper focused on suspect 1 and lost situational awareness. I'm guilty of it too, almost caused me to have a real bad day over in the sandbox one time. Learned my lesson though, there's always a second and third threat, even if there's not there is.
An officer in a covering position back at the street behind the car would've been a good idea too but now I'm being an armchair QB.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
May 13, 2013, 09:16 PM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
Welcome back from the sandbox Tucker 1371 and thanks for your service. Also good point. Ive had my share of bad lead my way compared to some and it's nothing to brag about from my end for sure, but i have friends that felt the lead and the dead more than any man should. (nam) Then again that's why they did what they did and you did what you did, so many of us stateside don't have to. I'm reminded to often when i think of my brother GRHS. Anyway glad you can tell the tale and thanks again.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario! |
|
May 13, 2013, 09:51 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 25, 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 138
|
Funny how the article infers that verbally indentifying themselves as "police" was enough to verify their authenticity to the perp, even though having badges, "police radios" and the word "police" on their armor was a common technique of thieves.
For my part, I would be very suspicious of some men wearing body armor over their t-shirts who come up to my door asking to search my house. I wouldn't start shooting at them, but then again I'm not a drug dealer. What I would do is ask for identification and then call the police to verify that the men at my door were genuine before deciding what to do next. Ivan |
May 14, 2013, 12:26 AM | #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
|
Quote:
None of the officers gave any indication they saw the guy in the car. Looks like they just missed him. The officers, exposed in the open, drew their guns while under fire from a gunman who had the cover of a tree. They stood their ground, fought back and killed the suspect. You might cut 'em a break. And yes, there were mistakes that were, I'm sure, addressed in training. Things never turn to crap in our heads---just in the world of reality (with great regularity). Just my thoughts on the matter. Last edited by Nnobby45; May 14, 2013 at 12:52 AM. |
|
May 14, 2013, 08:15 AM | #42 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
May 14, 2013, 05:40 PM | #43 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Guns & tactics...
I agree with post #38. Stress fear anger etc can cause a rapid change in your hearing, vision, perception of time/distance etc. Author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun press items about the subject.
I'd add that any members who feel they would react a certain way to a LE raid should review the recent incident in central FL of a group of sworn deputies who went to the WRONG address & then shot/killed the home owner who answered the door holding a firearm. This tragic event ended with the armed citizen dying, the sworn deputies being cleared of all wrong-doing, the Sheriff's Office being sued for wrongful death & the original subject having all his criminal charges dismissed. ClydeFrog |
May 14, 2013, 11:59 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
It would be nice to know. I actually know someone is in LE maybe have him give me some info when he gets time and I run into him again. Thanks SPATS
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario! |
|
May 15, 2013, 06:30 AM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 286
|
Those officers are LUCKY. Poorly executed raid. No situation awareness...well lack of proper SA.
Do I feel sorry for that guy being gunned down...no I'm sorry he did not drop his weapon til he got shot in the head...by then it was too late. He chose death over life in prison. All comes down to a little green plant...amazing what human beings would do for something that is nothing. Well apparently to the shooter...a plant was worth his life. Hope to see this video used as training aids on what could be done better in future classes. I could sit here and pick this video apart, but I was not there nor am I these officers Commander. Quote:
I hope they each get sued personally.
__________________
My YouTube MOLON LABE
Training pays off...so keep active with your firearm. It could save your life one day. |
|
May 15, 2013, 07:45 AM | #46 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
For me, this video really highlights the vagaries of gunfights. It's very easy for me to say "I'll do X, Y or Z," but the reality may be quite different. Those officers have far more training than I, and it still took quite a while (& lots of bullets) to end the fight. The attacker chooses the time & place, and there's a whole lot of luck that plays into it, no matter how much training & trigger time.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
May 15, 2013, 08:01 AM | #47 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
|
Quote:
As an aside: In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed a proclamation which designated May 15th as Peace Officers Memorial Day. Stay safe.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. |
|
May 15, 2013, 09:37 AM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 280
|
Looking at that video, I believe that all the law enforcement officers were at risk of being shot in the opening seconds, and they were very lucky not to have had that happen (had the gunman been more proficient).
|
May 15, 2013, 03:28 PM | #49 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Miami Vice clip....
There is a clip on www.youtube.com of a scene from the 1980s cop drama; Miami Vice where a top match shooter(Im not sure exactly who but one of the big names in the ISPC sport) plays a bad guy & shows how fast a skilled person can draw & shoot.
If you never saw the video, it's a real eye-opener. Bear, in mind the Miami Vice producers had him draw & fire in real time, no SFX or editing. For you newer shooters, the scene was with a blank firing pistol; no CGI. CF EDIT; The Youtube clip with the Miami Vice scene is PACT Timers In Hollywood. |
May 15, 2013, 04:33 PM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 15, 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,416
|
Clyde, your link is to youtube home page.
Is this the clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsKj6RGQ2VM |
|
|