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Old September 22, 2020, 03:30 AM   #51
rc
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In A Knife Fight, No Pillows Allowed

I think that both sides fight dirty but the Democrats have been taking things to a whole new level of dirty politics with non stop impeachment and tabloid politics based on fabricated accusation and scandal. They never accepted the loss of Hillary to Trump. They cry about the constitution when it serves their purpose and then try to change the rules of the game to take rights or money or power away from average citizens while packing their pockets with cash from business deals their decisions impact like stock investments or with knowledge of major policies coming that impact asset values. If the shoe was on the other foot and the democrats had the senate and the presidency they would not wait to fill the court appointment no matter what they say publicly today. One thing for sure, politicians lie. Democrats would ram through a progressive who aligned with their agenda to transform America into something none of us would recognize. RGB held on to power till the end but the power of life and death was out of her control. Her dying wishes mean nothing in constitutional terms. If she wanted a liberal replacement she could have stepped down when Obama was in office but what happened when Scalia died probably influenced her delay to retire. But the Republicans controlled the senate then and had power to affect the process granted in the constitution and they do now too so like a knife fight there is no hard and fast rules of behavior when talking about the future of our country. If there was we would still need 60 votes in the senate to pass laws and confirm nominations. Winner takes all, no compromises. The threats of open rebellion in the streets are just one more attempt to coerce the country down a path of increasing socialism and mob rule. I pray that sanity and common sense and civility return to our government or the future will be one where each generation has less opportunity than the last. The current trend towards racial division, political division, no accountability for behavior, no respect for laws, unequal treatment by the justice systems depending on who you are and redistribution of wealth by Government fiat at taking us down a very dangerous path. If filling RGB's seat with a solid conservative before the election can change the history of our country for the better.... I say fight dirty. The other side will no matter how nice we are to them today.
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Old September 22, 2020, 02:27 PM   #52
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I just like the quote:

If it wasn't for double standards our politicians wouldn't have any standards at all.
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Old September 22, 2020, 06:30 PM   #53
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I’m not impressed with either side, more akin to “none of the above“.
But I’m more worried about erosion of 1st and 2nd rights, so that eliminates 1.
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Old September 26, 2020, 11:50 PM   #54
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I see Trump nominated the one person I believe his opposition feared this go around. I briefly read up on Amy Barrett during the last scotus vacancy (I recall her being on the short list then). After reading a little more in depth the past couple days I believe she has a lot to offer. She’s obviously 2A friendly. Trumps political opponents have probably waken in cold sweats the past couple of nights. The two attacks I’ve seen is that she is :Gasp: catholic (how intolerant and narrow minded is that!?) and that she will “strike down” Obamacare. You know, that poorly conceived law that has largely already been gutted by the courts over the years until now it’s just a hollow shell of what it was supposed to be.

I say hold confirmation hearings but don’t vote to confirm until after the election. Get the anti gunners and anarchy lovers on record attacking Amy Barrett before the election (I believe she will destroy them anyway), don’t appear rushed, show voters why they need to keep pro 2A politicians in (the continuing need to do their duty), and there’s always the probability of confirming her in the lame duck session if republicans do lose the senate.
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Old September 27, 2020, 02:26 AM   #55
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Yeah , she is so pro 2nd she thinks none violent felons should be able to keep the right . I’d like to find that opinion she wrote , it’s actually a dissent but I don’t know the case . I’ve only heard about it but haven’t seen what she actually wrote
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Old September 27, 2020, 06:20 AM   #56
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@Metal god: Kanter vs Barr.

For a backgrounder see https://sites.law.duke.edu/secondtho...ond-amendment/

Last edited by kkb; September 27, 2020 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Forgot Kanter v Barr link.
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Old September 27, 2020, 12:11 PM   #57
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Thanks kkb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barret
Some maintain that there are certain groups of people—for example, violent felons—who fall entirely outside the Second Amendment’s scope. . . . Others maintain that all people have the right to keep and bear arms but that history and tradition support Congress’s power to strip certain groups of that right.
Quote:
In other words, the conceptual question is whether a certain class of persons simply has no Second Amendment rights at all or has such rights but can be permissibly stripped of them. I think of this distinction as similar to that between void vs. voidable contracts. Judge Barrett opts for the voidable view; a felon is protected by the Second Amendment unless and until the legislature strips her of that right. Or, as she puts it, “a person convicted of a qualifying crime does not automatically lose his right to keep and bear arms but instead becomes eligible to lose it.” On her view, then, there’s no first step when dealing with persons. They all fall within the protection of the Second Amendment and the only question is whether the government may permissibly take away their right. After surveying the historical arguments for doing so, Judge Barrett concludes that the government can only permissibly take away the rights of those felons who are dangerous. Because the government provided no evidence that Kanter was himself dangerous, or that mail fraudsters as a class are dangerous, the application of § 922(g)(1) to him violated the Second Amendment.

Interesting , I've lived my whole life with that restriction on the books so never gave it any in depth thought really . I still have to process this more . Not to unlike the argument mamajuana and dealing it should not be a felony or a crime at all . I believe once you have engaged in breaking the law , breaking more laws is just a simple step away . I should stop there because I don't have a fully thought through opinion on this yet . I do know , don't think we should convict people for what they might do in the future so not sure how that fits in here yet .
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Old September 27, 2020, 12:45 PM   #58
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The Senate could just bring it up for a vote; no hearing required.
Then the country would not have to put up with the circus that
the hearing will provide. Only a majority vote would be needed.
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Old September 28, 2020, 02:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
only question is whether the government may permissibly take away their right.
I have a problem with the language used here. I don't think it is correct.

The Government cannot take away something it does not grant. And the Government of the United States does not grant our unalienable (natural) rights. It recognizes them, but it does not grant them.

Therefore it cannot take them away. What is taken away is the ability to lawfully exercise the right. In essence the right is not removed, it is denied.

In practical terms the effect is the same, but there is, and should be a specific difference in the language used and its actual meaning.
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Old September 28, 2020, 08:41 AM   #60
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44 , My question would be is there in inalienable right to possess a firearm or is the inalienable right purely to self-defense . Inalienable is often referred to as a God-given right , does that mean God gave us the right to keep and bear arms .

Put another way how is it in alienable right something that requires a man-made object ?
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Old September 28, 2020, 08:56 AM   #61
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Quote:
Put another way how is it in alienable right something that requires a man-made object ?
My view is that the 2nd amendment simply states the obvious: that there is no class of humanity that is denied what other humans have access to. If any people may bear weapons, then all people may bear weapons.

I'm always reminded of the serf class that were denied access to swords. Only those deemed 'worthy' could have those.

The question of felons and Barret's decent are interesting. I've never given it much thought, but does a felon who serves out their punishment get all their rights back?

How does it change if they are violent felons. What if they used a gun in the violence? Should they forever lose their right to bear arms? Are we now saying they are indeed a human that no longer has the right? Or are we saying that they had the right, but abused it and have proven they can no longer be trusted to behave in our society?

I don't have answers.
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Old September 28, 2020, 11:17 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky
The question of felons and Barret's decent are interesting. I've never given it much thought, but does a felon who serves out their punishment get all their rights back?
They used to. Making a felony conviction (ANY felony conviction, even non-violent) into a lifetime ban on the RKBA is a relatively modern concept.
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Old September 28, 2020, 12:52 PM   #63
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On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE". This was from a doctor that had to treat beaten women. So many convictions are plea deals that reduce a charge so prosecutors are assured a conviction. Conviction records may or may not relate to how violent a crime was, but more to how easy a case the D.A. wanted to deal with. It makes me uneasy about having ex-felons with guns. Just an opinion. Grant.
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Old September 28, 2020, 01:20 PM   #64
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Quote:
Inalienable is often referred to as a God-given right , does that mean God gave us the right to keep and bear arms .
Inalienable, unalienable, and God given rights are also called "natural rights", and it may help clarify some points of view if you think of them in that way.

God (Nature) gave the tiger his teeth and claws, gave the cow horns, the eagle talons and a sharp beak, etc. NO LAW made by man can change or invalidate that.

Each of us as individuals has a fundamental natural right to defend our lives. This right does not exist because someone wrote something on a piece of paper. It exists because WE EXIST. And nothing written on paper or passed by government can change this.

So, yes, "God" gave us the right to keep and bear arms, simply by creating us, in the first place.

Quote:
My view is that the 2nd amendment simply states the obvious: that there is no class of humanity that is denied what other humans have access to. If any people may bear weapons, then all people may bear weapons.
The 2nd Amendment does not grant any right. It restricts Government from infringing on a recognized natural right.

How well it does that is open to debate. The intent of it, is not.

Quote:
I'm always reminded of the serf class that were denied access to swords.
Denying a subject people lawful possession of weapons is a very, very old means of attempting to ensure the ruling class remains the ruling class. Sometimes, it doesn't work out the way the ruling class intends...

The now famous martial arts weapon the Nunchaku (nunchucks) was not originally a weapon. It was a farm tool. A rice thresher. Denied swords, spears (bows??) and other recognized weapons by the Japanese, Okinawans learned other uses for the rice thresher....and were obeying the letter of Japanese law while doing it.

Even the most dictatorial rulers do not, and cannot deny farmers the tools they need, because even the rulers have to eat, just like everyone else.

Quote:
Are we now saying they are indeed a human that no longer has the right? Or are we saying that they had the right, but abused it and have proven they can no longer be trusted to behave in our society?
In principle, since humans do not grant rights, humans cannot take away rights. The violent felon retains all human rights, in principle. What we do is restrict/deny them the exercise (use) of some rights (like locking them up, denying them the right to travel freely). When, THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS they prove they cannot be trusted in society, we restrict their rights, for the safety of all.

In 1968 we passed a law that created a permanent prohibited person status for convicted felons possessing firearms.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Quote:
On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE".
And yet, when you look at investments and buying stocks they take great pains to tell you just the opposite, that past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Some people DO change. Most don't.

Where I think we screwed up is the blanket "felony conviction" term because there are so many non-violent (and in some cases non-harmful) offenses that are classed as felonies. Rather than spending the effort, time, and money to look at each case for what it is, an individual thing, we chose a one size covers all approach, and we are seeing the results of that, to this day.
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Old September 28, 2020, 03:15 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Quote:
On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE".
And yet, when you look at investments and buying stocks they take great pains to tell you just the opposite, that past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Some people DO change. Most don't.

Where I think we screwed up is the blanket "felony conviction" term because there are so many non-violent (and in some cases non-harmful) offenses that are classed as felonies. Rather than spending the effort, time, and money to look at each case for what it is, an individual thing, we chose a one size covers all approach, and we are seeing the results of that, to this day.
If you look at mass shootings and school shootings in the United States, while many were committed by "prohibited" persons, many were not committed by prohibited persons. Cases in point: the Las Vegas Harvest Festival shooting, the San Bernardino shooting, the Pulse Club shooting, and the Republican baseball team shooting (among many others).
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Old September 28, 2020, 04:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
If you look at mass shootings and school shootings in the United States, while many were committed by "prohibited" persons, many were not committed by prohibited persons. Cases in point: the Las Vegas Harvest Festival shooting, the San Bernardino shooting, the Pulse Club shooting, and the Republican baseball team shooting (among many others).
Isn't that the problem for all of use . The anti's can't point to a reasonable fix because it's so random in reality . There solution is to ban and or take guns away . What's our ( pro gun ) people's solution to stopping mass shootings ? Unfortunately the only honest answer is that a free society has trade offs . We have to except a certain amount of pain to have the things we want . Driving is one , there has to be an incredible amount of death directly caused by driving every year . How about alcohol and driving , domestic violence , child abuse or just plain old how bad it can be for you . Yet there's a constitutional amendment making it legal . Maybe if the 21st amendment had the words "shall not be infringed" we could restrict it more ;-)
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Old September 28, 2020, 04:11 PM   #67
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Just as an expirement, I looked up the Pulse night club shooter. He had a very troubled youth and had a lot of problems with violence in school. He also was being watched by the FBI, on a terrorist watch list for a period of time.

I think almost all of these people have indications of issues and warning signs (not so for the Las Vegas strip guy) that are ignored or sealed because they were done as juveniles.

IDK what to do without creating 'minority report' type situations.
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Old September 28, 2020, 08:09 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky
I think almost all of these people have indications of issues and warning signs (not so for the Las Vegas strip guy) that are ignored or sealed because they were done as juveniles.

IDK what to do without creating 'minority report' type situations.
Sure, and the Florida high school shooter had a boatload of issues, too. On the other hand, I think it was the San Bernardino shooter (maybe one of the others) who was a licensed armed security guard. So he had passed not just the normal background check for a carry permit, but whatever additional level(s) of check they conduct for armed guards.

The only thing we can generalize on is that we can't generalize.
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Old September 28, 2020, 09:06 PM   #69
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If I had to pick either the next president or next Supreme Court justice, I think I’d rather take the justice. The impact of a strong 2A supporter and fiscal conservative with 20-30 years to sit on the court will likely bear more fruit than a deadlocked president. Thanks
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Old September 29, 2020, 11:31 AM   #70
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^^^^^^^ this is why I voted for Trump in the first place; very glad I did.
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Old September 29, 2020, 12:13 PM   #71
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Easy to get wrapped around the axle hating this or that candidate. Elections should be about policies. There will always be a 1000 things you could hate about the candidate. They will be gone in a few years. Policies and appointments will haunt you for decades or....indefinitely.
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Old September 29, 2020, 12:14 PM   #72
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The problem I see is in todays environment if half the country believes the SCOTUS is illegitimate and the other half skeptical of the DOJ and intelligent agencies . I don’t see how that’s not a disaster waiting to happen .

I literally had to stop watching all news except my local news three or four weeks ago . I’m just so tired of being lied to . This results in at least for me having very little confidence in anything anyone’s telling me . Not sure how a conservative court will help in the above matters
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Old September 29, 2020, 12:56 PM   #73
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I’m just so tired of being lied to . This results in at least for me having very little confidence in anything anyone’s telling me
This. This is me and my entire family.
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Old September 29, 2020, 07:51 PM   #74
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Hearings will start October 12, 2020--

That date is the 139th anniversary of the Gunfight at OK Corral-Tombstone, AZ..

This will be BORK, THOMAS and Kavanaugh all rolled into one and then a little more Id expect.
Schumer has said that the Amer Bar Committees positive recommendation is the "GOLD STANDARD" on three seperate occasion s over several yuears..

Why is he vowing to figjt w/ all his tactics?? Hippocrit.
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Old September 29, 2020, 07:56 PM   #75
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Im not watching or reading anything about it . All Theater with no substance no reason to watch . Same with the big debate tonight .
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