Any M-14s in the Registry

[Machineguntony]

Considering the age of the M14, I would think that there would be quite a few in the registry, but I never see any F/A M14s for sale.

Since I have a .308 coming, I would like another gun that shoots .308.

I intend to turn the M14 into an M21. That'd be sweet.

Does anyone know of any F/A M14s for sale? Is there a reason why these guns are not for sale?

[Machineguntony]

Right when I post this...

I find this...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=400837759

What is a rewelded M14? A rewelded M60 is to be avoided, so is the same true for an M14? Can someone give me a quick education, please? I am going to do an internet search.

What is everyone's opinion about this gun? Is the price accurate for an M14?

Please don't start a bidding war with me on this gun. Let's not overpay.

[James K]

I was once told that there are NO true M14's in the registry. There are rifles made at one time or another using cut-and-weld M14 receivers and also some selective fire guns made from M1A and other clones, either by the company or by others who then registered them legally when it could still be done.

But there never has been a legal way an individual could acquire an M14; none were ever sold*, none were legally released to individuals, none were sold as DEWATs and then restored. Any attempt at registering an M14 prior to 1986 would have resulted in arrest for possession of stolen government property.

There could have been a small window in the 1968 amnesty, but ATTD (predecessor to BATFE) told me at the time that since no M14s had been released legally, they would report any attempted registrant to the FBI for possession of stolen goods. (Other weapons, even BAR's, had been imported as DEWAT's and sold legally, so they could be registered, but not M14's.)

*There were plans to sell M14s with welded selectors, designated "M14M", through DCM, but that went west with the JFK assassination, and none were ever actually sold. I knew one three-star who brought back an M14 from Vietnam. When he retired, he was ordered to turn it in. Talk about one p***ed off general!

Jim

[45_auto]

I know there's at least one, I've fired it at a local class 3 shoot.

It wasn't a very fun gun to shoot, pretty nasty on full auto. A BAR or FN-D is MUCH more controllable and accurate, they'll just hang there putting the bullets where you want them.

[James K]

I will use a new post to discuss that "reweld" M14. After the M14 was phased out of service, those not needed or wanted by the military or police were stripped, the receivers cut in half with a diamond saw, and the parts then scrapped. Some folks bought the scrap and, as they had been done previously with M1 rifle scrap, welded a front and back half together. They registered the guns as machineguns. Others did the same thing, but welded up the selector, going by an old BATFE letter saying that such a rifle would not be a machinegun. Later, BATFE stated that such letters were one time permission and applied only to the original recipient; they did not grant any permission to other individuals nor did they constitute blanket permission to make and sell M14 receivers built from scrap. That rifle was one made under one of those letters and legally registered. It is fully transferrable, but be aware of its history as resurrected scrap.

Those receivers (like the M1 receivers) are sometimes called "rewelds"; I object to the term because you can't "reweld" something that was never welded to begin with. I prefer, and use, the term "cut-and-weld" as more accurate and more descriptive.

Jim

[James K]

Hi, 45 AUTO,

I have to think you either fired something other than a true M14, or you fired an M14 that was on loan from the government to a state association. If it was an M14, it would be interesting to know how it was acquired and registered.

Jim

[Machineguntony]

James,

Is this a true M14 in the registry? It's a DOE gun that is somehow out and transferrable.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=402203633

Notice the difference in price. I guess I am going to avoid the cut and welded M14. Fact that it has been cut in half and then welded back together just sounds tenuous, and maybe that's why there is a difference in price.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by james k

I have to think you either fired something other than a true M14, or you fired an M14 that was on loan from the government to a state association.

It looked, smelled, sounded, and felt like an M14. Didn't pay much more attention to it than that. It was for sale and transferable so I'm pretty sure it wasn't on loan from the government, but I wasn't interested so didn't inquire into it's pedigree.

[shortfal]

There are quite a few guys on both the Subguns.com or Sturmgewehr.com
sites that would probably be able to give a rundown on the full auto M14's.
Pete

[Willie Lowman]

But there never has been a legal way an individual could acquire an M14; none were ever sold

That is simply not true.

H&R auctioned a handfull of transferable M14s when they went bankrupt.

[SR420]

Shared By Permission

From the 02/27/10 edition of the canon, aka M14 Rifle History and Development,

"There are several hundred National Firearms Act (NFA) registered USGI select fire M14 rifles (including legally welded USGI receivers) in the United States according to an ATF Agent who conducted an audit of the NFA Registry. The Agent conducted the audit with the specific purpose of determining the number of USGI M14 rifles in the Registry. Most of the NFA Registered select fire M14 receivers have been welded back together. Welded USGI M14 receivers were registered under the National Firearms Act by approved ATF Form.

There were likely a few uncut USGI M14 rifles among the tens of thousands of machine guns registered when the National Firearms Act was revised in 1968. One such amnesty example is Harrington & Richardson M14 serial number 449955. The NFA amnesty period ran from November 02, 1968 to December 01, 1968. At least two Springfield Armory T44E4 rifles made it into the NFA Registry under the amnesty and forty years later remain in the hands of private citizens.

In late 1985 or early 1986, Harrington & Richardson registered a group of twenty-five to thirty, possibly more, Harrington & Richardson M14 rifles and a handful of the Harrington & Richardson .22 LR caliber M14 Simulator rifles with the BATF. These M14 rifles had never left the factory and were registered in time to become legal for civilian possession before the 1986 McClure-Volkmer Firearms Owner Protection Act ended any further legal registration of automatic capable firearms for civilian purchase. They were auctioned off when Harrington & Richardson went out of business.

One of the soon-to-be auctioned M14 rifles, serial number 87156, was transferred by Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. to Qualified Manufacturing (Broken Arrow, OK) on November 02, 1985 by approved ATF Form 2. Qualified Manufacturing was a Class 2 FFL/SOT firearms manufacturing business reportedly owned by Richard Parker. Qualified Manufacturing submitted an ATF Form 2 to return M14 serial number 87156 to Harrington & Richardson on November 14, 1985. The BATF approved the Form 2 on December 05, 1985. Based on this sequence of events, the Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. auction likely occurred soon after December 05, 1985. Robert J. Perry purchased these H&R M14 and M14 Simulator rifles in April 1990 from the anonymous winning bidder of the Harrington & Richardson auction. Subsequent to the passing of Mr. Perry, the Harrington & Richardson rifles were sold to other individuals.

Most of the Harrington & Richardson M14 rifles were test models, experimental Guerilla Gun M14 models or machined receivers that had never been heat treated. Some had no scope mount boss and threaded bolt hole on the left hand side while others were barreled actions or only partially assembled. A few were standard issue M14 rifles with production serial numbers such as 55632, and 87156 and 1545579. Most of the rifles had hand stamped experimental or test model numbers, e.g., X-40. A number of these M14 rifles were assembled with T44E6 parts and some had the rear sight pocket knob holes milled off while others lacked the U S RIFLE M14 marking on the heel. The Harrington & Richardson M14 rifles that required it were heat treated at FPM Heat Treating (Chicago, IL). This collection of Harrington & Richardson M14 rifles was then phosphate coated and assembled into new M14 rifles with standard USGI M14 parts. Parts were cannibalized from the four .22 LR caliber select fire rifles to create three complete .22 LR caliber M14 Simulator models. The phosphate coating and rebuilding of the Harrington & Richardson rifles was done under the supervision of Robert J. Perry and an associate who wishes to remain anonymous.

U. S. Department of Energy - The U. S. Department of Energy (DOE) purchased twenty-five Springfield Armory, Inc. M21 models in the late 1990s for its Special Response Force. The commercial M21 rifles performed well. The DOE subsequently purchased USGI M14 rifles from Anniston Army Depot. At one point, the DOE inventory of M14 rifles was about 300. The M14 rifles were stored in three different locations. Scoped DOE M14 rifles were fitted with Smith Enterprise, Inc. Weaver style rail XM-21 scope mounts.

As of 2007, most of the M14 rifles at DOE have been transferred to other government agencies and the few remaining are not issue equipment. All remaining M14 rifles held by DOE were to be eventually transferred to other government agencies. DOE disposal procedures only allow transfer to another government agency or destruction. Those are the only allowable means of reducing weapons inventory for DOE. It remains a mystery as to how but a small number of the USGI M14 rifles formerly held by the DOE were released for sale in the late 1990s to the public. This small lot of USGI M14 rifles was obtained and subsequently sold into the commercial market by Class 3 SOT/FFL businessman F. Charles Logan (Warrendale, PA).

The number of former DOE M14 rifles released for sale has been reported as fifteen by a very credible source. Many of these DOE M14 rifles have the symbol # and a number etched on the left side of the receiver above the stock line. These are DOE weapons chit numbers. The numbers were engraved on the receivers at the direction of the DOE Senior Firearms Advisor at the time, Dave Shannon. A second very credible source has observed one DOE M14 rifle etched with # 29. Another seven of these DOE M14 rifles are etched with the following: # 8, # 10, # 12, # 19, # 21 (H & R serial number 1564367), # 22 (H & R serial number 1566863) and # 34 (Winchester serial number 1117145).

NFA Registered Welded Select Fire Models - The following FFL/SOT businesses legally welded pieces of scrap to create USGI M14 receivers and registered them in time to remain transferable: Bill Fleming (Collinsville, OK), H&R Gun Co. (Holland, OH), John Norrell Arms, Inc. (Little Rock, AR), Neal Smith (Smith Firearms in Mentor, OH), Specialty Arms Co. (Springfield, OH) and the late Bruce Swalwell (Metro Tech, Ltd. of McHenry, IL).

One M14 receiver legally welded together by Bruce Swalwell was engraved M Tech McHenry ILL. Mr. Swalwell also worked for Neal Smith before 1986. Reportedly, Bill Fleming registered about fifty welded USGI select fire M14 receivers. H&R Gun Co. M14 type rifle serial number 0556 is a select fire USGI M14 receiver rifle. It was originally registered with the BATF by an approved NFA Form before the May 1986 ban. On March 31, 2003 this rifle sported a USGI birch stock, USGI M2 bipod, 18 " barrel and lugless flash suppressor. It was quickly sold by Elite Firearms (Boaz, KY).

Post-’86 dealer samples - A small number of Chinese Norinco select fire M14 rifles were imported about 1991 into the United States by Century Arms International as post-'86 dealer samples for sale to law enforcement agencies. Serial numbers for some of these NFA registered post-'86 ban dealer sample Norinco select fire M14 rifles are 62021815, 62044810, 63015693, 63022377, and 63035184.

In the late 1980s, Global Sales (then Minden, NV) imported USGI M14 rifles from Israel into the United States legally for sale to law enforcement agencies. Dennys Guns (North Kansas City, MO) imported Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. M14 serial number 9970X as a post-’86 dealer sample."

[James K]

Interesting, and I appreciate the update, especially on the DOE rifles. It is still somewhat clouded by the statement about "... registered USGI select fire M14 rifles (including legally welded USGI receivers)..." (Emphasis mine.)

A while back there was a report of M14 rifles for sale by the TVA, welded selectors, no NFA transfer, shipping to local FFL, etc. A lot of folks got excited.

I called the number given, but forgot about the time difference, so my call was early. Rather than going directly to the extension, the operator picked up with "Good Morning, ATF. Agent X is not at his desk yet."

I have no idea what kind of games they were playing; maybe they sold the rifle then arrested the buyer for possession. That would be illegal, but who knows?

Jim

[Skans]

I remember when it wasn't unusual to come across M14's or converted M1A's back some 15 years ago. Seems like there were a number of BM59's too.

[Machineguntony]

Is $30,000 a fair price for the DOE gun? I'm debating if I want to buy that gun. I'm itching to make an awesome shooting M21 with a polymer camo stock and a scope.

Fact that no one is bidding on it worries me. But, wow, I'd love a F/A M21.

[Willie Lowman]

The fact that is cost $30,000 is why nobody is bidding on it.

If I was looking for a select fire 7.62x51 rifle that I was going to shoot a bunch, I'd get a G3. Or a FAL.

[Machineguntony]

What is a realistic, ie current market price, for an uncut, unwelded M14?

$32,000 for an MP5k, and there are a ton of bidders. M14, zero bidders. Hmmm.

[Slamfire]

There are real M14's out there, but I don't know the legality of them, or what category they fall under.

One DCM State Association, the receipt holder brought Government hand receipt M14's to matches and let juniors use them. One match, he lent one out, Dad & Junior went home with the thing, and the receipt holder did not have the information to find out just who they were. I am certain the serial number was reported as stolen. All DCM/CMP M14's were recalled, not so long ago, so there should not be any real M14's in the hands of DCM/CMP clubs. Before the recall, when I was a member of the state association, I would mention what a liability these things were. Shooters who had been loaned one to shoot ended sticking the things in their closets, hoping that if they sat on the rifle long enough, people would forget that they had one, and given the number of hands the property receipts went through, it is likely that some real state association M14's are still out there.

I met a Marine Reservist, he was a Korea/Vietnam veteran., belonged to some reservist group for decades after. He had a real M14 and claimed he still had the hand receipt. I suspect the unit had actually disbanded years before and lost track of what rifles they had loaned, and this guy was not interested in reminding anyone.

I have no idea of what would happen to someone who ended up with any of these rifles.

[dogrunner]

Insofar as being prosecuted for possession of an M/14 registered under the amnesty of 1968 I'd venture that such would be quite unlikely.

The registration certificate specifically stipulated that one registering an NFA weapon under that amnesty provision was precluded from prosecution under the NFA act or ANY other law................Don't forget. that amnesty occurred in the wake of the Haynes decision.

I papered an MP40 back then and still have a copy of the registration cert. even tho I sold the gun ten years ago.........hullava profit too.........hundred dollar gun for eight grand.

[Willie Lowman]

MP5k, and there are a ton of bidders. M14, zero bidders

MP5K is fun to shoot. M14 will rattle the teeth out of your head. 7.62x51 is not a round that is much fun to fire on full auto in most people's opinions.

I have shot a friend's HK G3. Shooting the G3 gets old pretty quick. I have been told that the G3 is a bit more controllable than an M14 because of the G3's bore being in line with the stock and the M14's bore being over the stock.

[Machineguntony]

Willie, i kind of agree. But I'm just itching to add an M14/M21 to my collection. Nowadays, I won't buy a rifle unless it has full auto capabilities, and is legal. I just have the full auto bug.

Also, an M60 is 7.62, but I hear (and see on youtube) is a very controllable gun. Granted, I have never fired an M60, but in about 10-12 months, I will have my M60. Why would an M60 be more controllable? The gas system? I don't find that the gas system in my Benelli M4 makes it any more controllable than my pump action shotguns.

[Willie Lowman]

The gas system? No. The M60 is more controllable because it weighs 23 pounds compared to the M14 that weighs 9 pounds.

If you want to get one and dress it up as an M21, go for it. It's your money. I will point out that pretty much every M14 you will see in the hands of our troops today have the selector switch removed and a selector block in place. Heck even the DOE rifle you are looking at has the selector removed. There must be a reason all the M14s are pinned to semi-auto.

---------------------

I will go on to add, if you are looking to make an authentic M21 then a full auto M14 with the selector pinned to semi auto will be make it as authentic as possible.
If you are looking to shoot a M21 on full auto, get ready to be disappointed. High magnification scopes and automatic rifles don't mix well. If you put a AimPoint or something on it, perhaps.
Truly, if you plan to shoot your M14 on full auto, you should look into something like an E2 stock or a Sage EBR stock. That and replacing the flash hider with a muzzle break. That would probably make for a better full auto shooter.

[James K]

Hi, dogrunner,

The Haynes decision was pretty narrow. The main intent of the GCA '68 in regard to machineguns was to get all those DEWATs registered and on paper, after the big flap created by Ashley Halsey, Jr. in his Saturday Evening Post article. The intent of the amnesty was to prevent prosecution for a previous failure to register the firearm or for having obtained the firearm without having gone through the paperwork, mainly veterans who had never registered war souvenirs and for those who had "rewatted" a DEWAT gun.

The paragraph on Form 4467 says only that information provided cannot be used for prosecution (Haynes), not that the registrant is immune from prosecution under any law for anything. (The idea that a mass murderer could escape prosecution by registering the murder weapon seems unlikely.)

Note that that paragraph gives limited immunity from prosecution; it does not say that registration must be accepted, that registration conveys title over any other claim, or that the firearm in question cannot be seized as contraband. So if no M14's had ever been released (as of that time) and the law assumed that any M14 was stolen government property, an attempt to register one could (and probably would) result in seizure of the gun, even if there were no prosecution.

Jim

[SR420]

YouTube video: Full Auto M14 MBR - controlled fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qv1O9VOpjQ

Good Iron M14 US Coast Guard / Navy Muzzle Brake

[dogrunner]

James K:

I quote: rear of form 4467 amnesty registration form), section 6: in part............The statute requiring y ou to register your firearm provides that information on evidence required to be submitted or retained by (if a natural person) in registering your firearm during the special grace period SHALL NOT BE USED AGAINST YOU DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY IN ANY CRIMINAL PROCEEDING.

Section goes on to state that: the statute does not preclude the use of such information or evidence in a prosecution or other action under any applicable provision of law with respect to the furnishing of false information.


The Haynes decision was the direct result of a fifth amendment challenge to the NFA in a criminal case by defendant Haynes..........the court held that those having illicit arms MUST be given some opportunity to register them.


I'll grant you that it MIGHT have been possible for the Gov't to perhaps succeed in a civil case (property recovery ??)..........but there could have been NO criminal prosecution for any other reason surrounding that registration.


Insofar as the criminal use of that weapon....a homicide, etc......THAT is an entirely different matter. Tho, even then, if the registration itself was the lead in to solving a h omicide it would be excluded under the terms of the fifth and some other route to proving the case would have to be relied on.......that immunity grant is in no fashion narrow in that regard.

[gyvel]

While on the subject, does anyone know how many genuine British L1-A1s are in the registry?