The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 10, 2022, 09:41 PM   #1
Jim567
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Location: NE FL
Posts: 620
Birthday Gift Handgun

I live in Florida.
I wish to purchase a handgun and gift it to my daughter for her birthday.
We have enjoyed quite a few days at the range.
She is over 21 and qualifies to own a firearm.
Is this OK.

Thanks
Jim567 is offline  
Old April 10, 2022, 09:49 PM   #2
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,650
Where is she?
Jim Watson is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 07:59 AM   #3
gbclarkson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Location: None of yer business, sonny
Posts: 433
Call your local FFL. The can (should be able to) guide you through the transfer process.
gbclarkson is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 09:15 AM   #4
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim567
Is this OK.
It is perfectly legal for you to purchase a handgun with the intention of giving it to someone else. When you fill out the 4473, you check the "Yes" box that asks if you are the actual purchaser. It is then your gun. When you make the gift, that is a subsequent transfer and both you and your daughter need to comply with whatever laws apply to handgun transfers where you live. If your daughter is a resident of another state, the transfer from you to her has to go through an FFL in her state of residence.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 05:39 PM   #5
Jim567
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Location: NE FL
Posts: 620
She is also in Florida.

Thanks.
Jim567 is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 05:58 PM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,249
Quote:
She is also in Florida.
Good. That's a little easier.

When you purchase the gun, you ARE the purchaser, so when you fill out the 4473 you would check "Yes" for question 21.a, that asks if you are the actual purchaser. The instructions for question 21.a state the following:

Quote:
A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party.
That makes it your gun, to do with it whatever you like. Including giving it to your daughter. When you give it to your daughter, that's another transfer. According to this site the second transfer does not have to go through an FFL as long as you are both residents of Florida. This site agrees.

However, this site says that Orange County has a law that requires all transfers between individuals to go through a licensed firearms dealer. If one county has such a law, others may also have such a law. You may need to do some homework. If you are buying the gun for your daughter, the FFL you buy it from may be able to advise you.

Just don't commit a technical straw purchase. If you take your daughter to a gun shop and let her pick out a gun, then YOU pay for it while she fills out the 4473 ... she is technically not the actual purchaser, since you are paying for it. However, if you hand her $500 or $1,000 in cash before you walk into the store, then it's her money and there's no problem filling out the 4473.

Yes, I know that's a bit silly, but that's what is.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 06:59 PM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,284
Federal law allows for you purchasing a gun and then later gifting to anyone you wish, provided they are legal to own it. "Later" can be 10 minutes or ten years, up to you when you give your property as a gift.

Federal law also allows you to purchase a gun AS A GIFT. Some of the form's questions may have to be answered differently, but I know it is allowed.

Fed, State/county laws will have to be followed when you gift the firearm, and can be different. Again, as AB points out, the dealer you are buying from should be able to walk you through all this.

If they can't, or won't, find another dealer.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 08:57 PM   #8
Crankylove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: Tooele, Ut
Posts: 1,721
Pick the gun, find an FFL local to her that has it, pay for gun as a gift for your daughter, have FFL call daughter to come fill out paperwork, do background check, and take gun home.
__________________
The answer to 1984 is 1776
Crankylove is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 09:09 PM   #9
Jim567
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Location: NE FL
Posts: 620
Thanks,
I am clear on this now.
What concerned me was, several years ago my neighbors wife wanted to Buy a rifle for her husband for Christmas.
The gun shop clerk told her she could not do that as it would be a straw purchase.
It was a surprise purchased by her and put under the Christmas tree until Christmas.
She ended up doing it anyway but was nervous about it.
Her Husband was an army infantry officer.
Jim567 is offline  
Old April 11, 2022, 10:41 PM   #10
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankylove
Pick the gun, find an FFL local to her that has it, pay for gun as a gift for your daughter, have FFL call daughter to come fill out paperwork, do background check, and take gun home.
Please do NOT do this.

Crankylove, the way I understand it what you have proposed is a straw purchase. How is Jim's daughter supposed to answer question 21.a on the 4473? The gun would already have been paid for, so she canNOT honestly answer "Yes" to the question, "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s)?"

The instructions for answering this question are as follow:

Quote:
Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 13, 2022, 12:00 AM   #11
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2,669
Gift the cash to your daught so that she can use it to buy the gun. If money as gift is too awkward, buy a gift card from the store and gift it to the daughter.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
tangolima is offline  
Old April 13, 2022, 07:55 PM   #12
Crankylove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: Tooele, Ut
Posts: 1,721
Quote:
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s)
Is she not the transferee?

I know of at least two occasions that firearms have been transferred in this exact manner, through ffls. Bought as a gift, ordered online, paid for by the gift giver, held at the FFL local to the receiver (in a different state) , receiving party picks up at FFL after 4473 and background check.


How would this be any different than purchasing a firearm, then taking the daughter and firearm to an FFL to do a transfer? She didn’t pay for the gun, but still has to fill out paperwork, right? And that would be a legal transfer, right? Even though she didn’t purchase the firearm, but is the transferee.

I’m not a lawyer, my advice/opinions may or may not be correct, just stating what I’ve seen in the past.
__________________
The answer to 1984 is 1776

Last edited by Crankylove; April 13, 2022 at 08:02 PM.
Crankylove is offline  
Old April 13, 2022, 10:25 PM   #13
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankylove
How would this be any different than purchasing a firearm, then taking the daughter and firearm to an FFL to do a transfer? She didn’t pay for the gun, but still has to fill out paperwork, right? And that would be a legal transfer, right? Even though she didn’t purchase the firearm, but is the transferee.
My understanding is that this would NOT be a legal transfer. I certainly agree that the motives are pure, but all the information I have reviewed on the issue of straw purchases suggests that if one person hands the FFL the money and a different person fills out the 4473, it's considered a straw purchase -- irrespective of whether or not either person is or is not a prohibited person.

In an earlier post I quoted the instructions for question 21.a of the 4473. Once again, the first part reads:

Quote:
Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). ...
The situation you propose is not directly addressed by the instructions. IMHO, it is therefore risky to assume that it's legal.

The BATFE discussed straw purchases in a recent newsletter: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ne...-2021/download

Quote:
Whether the actual buyer is prohibited or not is irrelevant as explained
in Abramski v. United States, 573 U.S. 169 (2014).
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 13, 2022, 10:48 PM   #14
Crankylove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: Tooele, Ut
Posts: 1,721
Aguila Blanca, Appreciate the info.

Hope I didn’t come off as trying to be argumentative, just trying to makes sense of these unnecessarily complex, and impossible to understand laws and rules, that seem to change on a daily basis.
__________________
The answer to 1984 is 1776
Crankylove is offline  
Old April 14, 2022, 05:06 AM   #15
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,048
Just make a reservation for dinner in one of the free counties. Give her the gift at dinner and you will be fine. I believe Orange County enacted that ordnance (it's not a law) to stop face to face sales at the gun show that takes place out at the fairgrounds.
Skans is offline  
Old April 14, 2022, 05:32 AM   #16
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
I believe Orange County enacted that ordnance (it's not a law) to stop face to face sales at the gun show that takes place out at the fairgrounds.
The Cornell Law School does not agree:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ordinance

Quote:
An ordinance is a law or decree by a municipality. Put differently, an ordinance is a local law. Usually ordinances forbid or restrict some type of activity. For example, § 4-03 of The Rules of the City for New York City states that, “vehicular traffic facing such signal [a steady red light] shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to procees is shown. In other words, in New York City, no turn on red.

Municipal governments can pass ordinances on matters that the state government allows to be regulated at the local level. The ordinance carries the state’s authority and has the same effect as a state statute.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 14, 2022, 10:08 AM   #17
jmhyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: MS - USA
Posts: 889
I have done exactly what the OP is contemplating. A few years ago, I purchased a new G26 at a local business with my money and in my name. In my state, private party sales or exchanges do not require going through an FFL. At the time, she was a legal resident of my state. So, on her birthday all I really needed to do was to give her the firearm as a gift. However, just to have a paper trail (such as in the case of theft or loss from her and any subsequent investigation related to illegal use of the firearm, etc), I typed up a simple bill of sale, accepted a $1 sale price, we each signed our name, and we each kept a copy for our records.
jmhyer is offline  
Old April 14, 2022, 03:46 PM   #18
Jim567
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Location: NE FL
Posts: 620
This is what I intend to do.Except substitute the dollar for gift. Paperwork will be dated on her birthday.
Jim567 is offline  
Old April 15, 2022, 12:46 AM   #19
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,191
Quote:
A few years ago, I purchased a new G26 at a local business with my money and in my name. In my state, private party sales or exchanges do not require going through an FFL. At the time, she was a legal resident of my state. So, on her birthday all I really needed to do was to give her the firearm as a gift. However, just to have a paper trail (such as in the case of theft or loss from her and any subsequent investigation related to illegal use of the firearm, etc), I typed up a simple bill of sale, accepted a $1 sale price, we each signed our name, and we each kept a copy for our records.
Because you accepted money in the exchange it does not qualify as a gift per the 4473 instructions.
Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.
If you had just bought it and given it to her, you would have been fine. As it stands, by officially turning it into a sale and accepting money, by the letter of the law, you committed a straw purchase.

Folks, this is VERY simple.

If you want to buy a firearm as a gift, that is perfectly legal as long as the person is a resident of your state and is not a prohibited person. But a gift is a GIFT. Don't complicate things. Buy it and GIVE it to the person. Don't turn it into a sale by accepting goods or services or money in trade, don't try to get cute at the gun store by having one person fill out the form and someone else pay the money.

If you can't stand the idea of filling out the form and then giving it to the person, then give them the money as a gift and let them do what they want with the money (which could include buying a gun if they so choose). But if you do that, do the gift at home--don't be playing around with handing over money at the gun store. The FFL is not going to allow the sale if things start to look hinky.

Another option if it's critical to you that there be some kind of paper trail to the recipient is to buy the gun yourself and fill out the 4473 as the actual buyer. Then, when you give it as a gift, go to an FFL, pay them to do a transfer to the recipient and then have the recipient fill out the form to accept the transfer. To make sure there's absolutely no misunderstanding, do NOT accept any money from the recipient.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old April 15, 2022, 04:20 PM   #20
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,069
Face to Face transfers in Minnesota

A while back there was proposed legislation that would require sellers in a face-to-face transaction to keep a bill of sale or some form of documentation of who they sold their firearm to and to be able to produce that paperwork under the penalty of law.

One legislator pointed out there was no time limit on how long you had to keep this paperwork.

When there was no response to his question of how long folk were expected to keep the paperwork he asked all the members who were legally married to come back the next day with their marriage licenses.
DaleA is offline  
Old April 15, 2022, 09:38 PM   #21
Geezerbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Location: Willamina, OR
Posts: 1,862
I can't say about other states but gifts of guns to immediate family members are excluded from the restrictions of personal sales.

From what I've seen the lack of support for this law (here in OR) has been so low, that it's almost like it doesn't exist. From what I recall, 3 county sheriffs refused to enforce it...

Tony
Geezerbiker is offline  
Old April 17, 2022, 02:15 PM   #22
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,839
Quote:
Geezerbiker I can't say about other states but gifts of guns to immediate family members are excluded from the restrictions of personal sales.
No, they aren't.
Under federal law, there is no such family exemption.
If you want to gift, sell, trade, buy, barter or any any way transfer possession of a firearm to an immediate family member who is not a resident of your state you have to transfer via a licensed dealer. It's been that way since 1968.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08759 seconds with 8 queries