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Old February 17, 2022, 08:39 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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I think we have semantics rearing its ugly head again. But, first, a reminder: some participants on this discussion are treading perilously close to violating forum rules regarding civil discourse. If you don't agree with what someone else posted, by all means disagree -- and do so by citing facts to rebut the other position. We don't need to engage in "Nyah, nyah" behavior on this forum.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled pedanticism: There are precedents, and there are precedents. The dictionary definition of precedent is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster
precedent noun
prec·​e·​dent | \ ˈpre-sə-dənt \

Definition of precedent (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : an earlier occurrence of something similar
2a : something done or said that may serve as an example or rule to authorize or justify a subsequent act of the same or an analogous kind a verdict that had no precedent
b : the convention established by such a precedent or by long practice
3 : a person or thing that serves as a model
Used in this way, the fact that certain people were able to succeed in a lawsuit against a firearms manufacturer by claiming that their advertising was irresponsible, thereby sneaking around the PLCAA, can certainly be viewed as establishing an informal precedent ... as in now that they have succeeded, others may be inspired to attempt the same thing. But in another court, in another state, a similar lawsuit might not survive the initial challenge based on the PLCAA.

Which brings us to the other kind of precedent: legal precedent. The Sandy Hook case was settled out of court, so there was NO ruling by a judge or finding by a jury. Since the parties agreed to the settlement, there will be no appeal. This means that there will be no published opinion by a court at any level, so there is nothing that can be cited in another suit as binding legal precedent.

Remember, this case was brought and proceeded under Connecticut law, not federal law. The federal PLCAA law was brought in by the defendant (Remington) in an attempt to have the case dismissed but, once that failed, the case was again (still) a Connecticut case.

If this discussion is to remain open, I strongly urge anyone who wants to discuss precedent to clearly specify whether he is taking about generic precedent, or legal precedent.
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Old February 18, 2022, 08:50 AM   #27
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That makes sense Aguila. It may still be a slippery slope for manufacturers and the 2A, but we’ll see. At least with the turn of events with our northern neighbors and Australia, people are seeing the original reason for the 2A, but I suspect, with this victory against Remington, the heat will only increase against what we still have and others gave up. We’ll see.
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Old February 18, 2022, 09:33 AM   #28
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I think that is a stretch Aguila. A "non-legal" precedent, by your chosen definition, involves a measure of commonality. Or, as a model, convention, that will generally be accepted by the "common man" as such. That is not the case here, not even close.

Since we are talking about a "legal issue", the "common man" may rationally infer that the legal version of the word precedent is the one in use. If you really want to be pedantic, it would be more appropriate to focus the discussion to the general use and understanding of "legal precedent". Glossing over divergent verbiage with a pass for someone's misunderstanding of the facts always reminds me of our past POTUS inventing Clintonese by changing the common understanding of the word "is".
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Old February 18, 2022, 09:43 AM   #29
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My head hurts....
(but my vison is very clear)

More & more anti-2A entities will use their Common Understanding of Precedent....
Financial death through a thousand nuisance lawsuits from every direction to flood the system.
... and states following the lead of NY and CN (et many al) to open the doors.
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Old February 18, 2022, 02:46 PM   #30
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Until reality slaps them in the face and forces them to recognize it (and sometimes, not even then...) most people believe what the news tells them, the way the news tells it to them.

We can use any terms we choose. and we tend to choose terms that are correct, but the news,...doesn't.

What people are being told and what they are going to believe is that here. Victims "of the gun" sued the gunmaker, and WON!

And, if these people sued the gunmaker and won, then we might also.

Doesn't matter that what the gunmaker was sued about was BS, doesn't matter that there was no court ruling. Doesn't even matter that the gunmaker went out of business years ago. All the general public is hearing from the general press is "Gunmaker lost lawsuit paid millions to victim's families".

So, yes, I think more people will try this tactic in the future, and I know there are lawyers who will help them, because, win or lose, they will get paid.


The original judge threw the case out, said it lacked merit. The CN Supreme Court re-instated the suit, Under their ruling, the case should not have been dismissed but should have its day in court and the jury would decide if there was any validity to the claim.

Or so I heard. Now, we have a settlement, which admits no guilt, and the case did NOT have its day in court, it was settled out of court.

But what the news tells us and too many people believe is that Remington "lost" the lawsuit.

Gotta love accuracy in media...I wish we actually had some...
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Old February 18, 2022, 03:14 PM   #31
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44 AMP, good summary.
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Old February 18, 2022, 05:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
I think that is a stretch Aguila. A "non-legal" precedent, by your chosen definition, involves a measure of commonality. Or, as a model, convention, that will generally be accepted by the "common man" as such. That is not the case here, not even close.

Since we are talking about a "legal issue", the "common man" may rationally infer that the legal version of the word precedent is the one in use. If you really want to be pedantic, it would be more appropriate to focus the discussion to the general use and understanding of "legal precedent". Glossing over divergent verbiage with a pass for someone's misunderstanding of the facts always reminds me of our past POTUS inventing Clintonese by changing the common understanding of the word "is".
Mark, it's not my "chosen" definition, it's the dictionary definition.

In this thread, we have people arguing -- to the verge of calling each other names -- over whether or not the Sandy Hook Parents v. Remington case creates a precedent that may be damaging to gun manufacturers (and, by extension, to us) down the road. It appeared to me that two of the most vocal opponents in that discussion were talking apples to oranges: one speaking about "precedent" in the everyday, dictionary sense and the other using the term as it applies to legal precedent.

All I intended was to get everybody on the same page. If this discussion continues, anyone who wants to discuss "precedent" should be clear as to which type of precedent he/she is talking about. It may appear crystal clear to you that 'the "common man' may rationally infer that the legal version of the word precedent is the one in use," but that isn't crystal clear to me. If we get people acting snotty toward other members over differing understandings and uses of the word "precedent," we'll close the discussion down.
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Old February 18, 2022, 06:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
The CN Supreme Court re-instated the suit, Under their ruling, the case should not have been dismissed but should have its day in court and the jury would decide if there was any validity to the claim.
Is this not precedent ? Can't CN courts now use that ruling to force new cases to move forward ? In fact if it is local precedent they MUST allow the cases to go forward correct ?

Does anyone have a link to that ruling ? I'd like to see how the judge/s concluded the marketing ( which ever was claimed to be the offending add ) had merit and how it side stepped PLCAA law ?
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Old February 18, 2022, 08:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Is this not precedent ? Can't CN courts now use that ruling to force new cases to move forward ? In fact if it is local precedent they MUST allow the cases to go forward correct ?
Am not a lawyer and probably have this a bit wrong, but my understanding is that precedent in case law is not chiseled in stone holy writ.

Its what was done before, what precedes the current case, and something that must be considered, as it provides a possible path, but its not quite law, and while its something required to be considered, its not something required to be followed.

If there is an argument deemed sufficiently compelling, existing precedent can be set aside. It rarely is, but it CAN be.

legal eagles, if I'm wrong, please enlighten me...
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Old February 18, 2022, 08:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Mark, it's not my "chosen" definition, it's the dictionary definition.
Sure it is. There are a LOT of dictionaries. Each has some etymological perspective they follow. When you "choose" a definition, you select the bias you prefer in the definition you choose to use. It is a very classic tactic lawyers use to sway the argument in the direction they want it to go.
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Old February 19, 2022, 12:36 PM   #36
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We asked that members wishing to discuss "precedent" in this thread be clear as to whether they are speaking about common, ordinary, everyday precedent, or legal precedent. There have been posts since that was requested (posts which may or may not have been deleted or edited) that went right ahead and mentioned "precedent" without specifying in which context the word was being used. Since the difference apparently becomes contentious, the thread has been closed because the request to be clear in communication was ignored.
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Old February 21, 2022, 06:29 PM   #37
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Let me add to Aguila Blanca's comments that in real life in the real world the ordinary, casual precedential (in contrast to a legal precedent) effect of a settlement like this is sort of a non-issue.

Most of these types of lawsuits are settled, so in the scheme of things one more settlement is pretty much business as usual. There are a number of reasons for this, including the facts that: (1) litigation distracts from the commercial defendant's core, business activities; and (2) a bad outcome can lead to actual, undesirable, legal precedent.
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