August 19, 2013, 06:19 AM | #126 | ||
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I clearly posted the return to normalcy once the threat has ended. Should my post be used against me anyone with half a brain would clearly see that it was nothing more than a temporary mindset used to help survive a violent attack. A very common mindset of being willing to get as nasty as a cornered cat. Quote:
You guys compare it to someone using excessive force or suggest that my "go animal" somehow would make a juror confused on whether I used to much force even though I clearly list "keep your head" next to describe the necessity to returning to normal demeanor once the threat is over. Again clearly a temporarily necessary state of mind to help fight off a violent deadly threat. |
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August 19, 2013, 06:50 AM | #127 | |
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It can't go one way. BTW I write to go animal and then keep your head and come back to normal. That is exactly the same thing a cornered cat, your approved description, does. That's how silly this debate has become. Again please note that I am not suggesting that you or pax or anyone are liars. I'm simply using it for debate purposes. I believe that the issue of not saying certain words/phrases which indicate a non defensive mindset like shoot to kill, I'll blow your brains out, be prepare to kill everyone you meet, and others, is certainly wise. I also believe that its being taken to the extreme here. |
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August 19, 2013, 09:08 AM | #128 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Do you believe that one who has "gone animal" would be expected by the triers of fact to have had the mental and emotional capacity to make the change instantly? Quote:
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If anyone I know ever tells me that he or she has been advised to "go animal" in a self defense training course, I will tell them to walk away immediately and to not return. Last edited by OldMarksman; August 19, 2013 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Sp. |
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August 19, 2013, 09:31 AM | #129 | |
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August 19, 2013, 09:51 AM | #130 |
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Actually, if you read the training literature in emergency and critical incidents, the useful responses are those that are practiced repeatedly in simulations. Thus, they are reasoned responses that move from conscious competence to unconscious competence - the concept of automaticity.
Thus, in a fire, dogfight, gun fight -well trained people don't go 'animal' which implies an unreasoned rage. They respond quickly with a perceptual and cognitive action paradigm that they trained into. We hear the mantra - you will resort to your training. Experts mention how in a gun fight their training guided them through. In cases with unreasoned use of force - for example, sympathetic or contagious shooting of an innocent - that might be described as 'going animal'. Extreme violence was not well thought out. Can we finally agree that this was an ill chose phrase - for many reasons?
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August 19, 2013, 10:26 AM | #131 |
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This came from a lecture that I gave last weekend.
"'If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat.' That is my tagline. A lot of people seem to think that this means something like, 'if you have to fight, fight really, really hard.' That is not what it means at all! "Here is the heart of the matter. To fight like a cornered cat is to fight with a specific goal in mind. A domestic cat is not interested in fighting with whatever has frightened her. She is not "punishing" her attacker. She is simply getting to safety. As soon as she escapes, she stops fighting. She does not deal in revenge. She avoids trouble whenever she can. If there is trouble brewing somewhere, she disappears. She does not stick around to see what is about to happen. If she is attacked, she simply leaves – efficiently. "A domestic cat does not live for the fight, either. She does keep her claws sharp, and she does know how to protect herself, but sharpening her claws is not all there is to her life. She is far more interested in living a safe, comfortable life than she is in any of that warrior stuff. She will avoid danger when she can. "If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat. Fight with the specific goal of getting to safety. Stop instantly when you know you have reached your goal. Don't deal in revenge. Don't stick around to see what is about to happen if you think trouble is coming. If you are attacked – leave!" This is a very far cry from telling people to "go animal." It is simply a word picture that I use to illustrate the mindset of someone who avoids trouble, seeks to get away from danger, and fights only for defense – never for offense. pax |
August 19, 2013, 10:41 AM | #132 | |||
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The words you use help define and form your mindset. The words we use not only influence how others perceive us. We also internalize those words and they thus influence our mindset. And thus there is no deception.
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August 19, 2013, 10:57 AM | #133 |
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Incidentally, daddyo, we do have far more in common than we are divided by. Like you, I am enjoying the discussion and am enjoying the opportunity to explore the mindset concept more thoroughly and more critically.
The problem is that we are walking along a very sharp ridgeline at the top of a mountain. There are steep cliffs and sharp rocks on both sides of the ridgeline. To take one foot off the trail in either direction will result in tragedy. On one side of the trail, you can fall to your death at the bottom of the cliffs by not responding soon enough, or effectively enough, to a violent attack. You can fall to your death on the other side of the trail and land on the sharp rocks of the legal system. Either way, falling off the trail is not ideal. So we have to stay on a fairly narrow mindset pathway. I suspect that you believe I am likely to fall off the cliffs on one side of the trail. And I believe that many of the posters in this thread have been concerned that you will fall to your death on the other side of the trail. But we do have some common ground, and that common ground is worth exploring. We agree that if you do have to fight for your life, you need to do so effectively and without finicky caution for your attacker's feelings or physical status."Do not worry about your condition; make the assailant worry about his condition," wrote Jeff Cooper many years ago. I think you and I can agree on that one. Another aspect we have in common is that we both agree that you must stop fighting as soon as you have reached safety. Safety might be defined as physically removing yourself from the area. It might be defined as that the attacker has stopped trying to harm you – he has run away, he has surrendered and thrown down his weapon, or he is no longer able to attack you because he is unconscious or dead. Neither one of us intends to continue a fight after safety has been reached. So we do have a lot in common. I am concerned with the phrase "go animal," because I think it fails to encapsulate some important mindset concepts. However, within the context of your larger list – and with extra explanations – I do not believe it is as problematic as the first responses you have seen in this thread. Unfortunately, I also believe that juries are made up of people who – like everyone else on the planet – may have limbic system, gut level, knee-jerk reactions to language. Hope this makes sense. pax |
August 19, 2013, 12:50 PM | #134 | ||||||||||||||||
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The fact that Zimmerman was found not guilty despite saying "they always get away" and following after it being suggested that he not and with the media making it look like he shot a child, all suggest to me that if the shooting is truely justified, you will be okay even in the most extreme cases. Quote:
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I expect the context to be reveiled and my triers to be able to see that I was following my training on how to survive a violent encounter. The natural next progression of which is to "keep you head" or return to normal ASAP. I expect my triers to take a look at my lifes history of non violence and law abiding behavior as well. Quote:
Becoming a cornered cat also known to me as going animal as in going hot like a cornered cat as in losing your normal soft and nice demeanor. Quote:
I agree with you BTW. Just as my scenario is rediculous and far fetched, so is yours. Quote:
You know good and well that when provided the whole picture of my quote, normal folks would see it as nothing more than the training tool that it is. I could make your cornered cat look like pure evil if allowed to give you only one side. He trained to become a cornered cat. A vicious crazed animal willing to do anything necessary to survive. Willing to use all the force available in an explosive violent burst. A cornered cat doesn't care how big you are, it doesn't care if you were bluffing, when it decides its time to act it gives everything it has when half of what it has would have sufficed. Sure sir a cornered cat will stop when you are no longer a threat but how much extra force did it deploy before making that decision? With my description "go animal" I am essentially saying the same thing only I add the need to return to normal non violent activity as soon as the threat has ended. After all I'm not a cat. I'm not evil. I am being forced into violence and my training dictates to do what is necessary to survive then return to peace. Your cat will often use more force than was necessary. I have seen cats keep up the fight on a fleeing dog. I have seen two cats literally beating a dogs posterior. Part of a cats defense is to be explosive and to keep the juice going well after it could easily flee. |
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August 19, 2013, 12:59 PM | #135 | |
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A cornered cat sounds like a higher order thinking beast to you though right? |
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August 19, 2013, 01:05 PM | #136 |
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daddyo, it has been pointed out to you several times already, but "deception" implies we are hiding something, in this case - according to you - a predisposition toward use of deadly force.
That is demonstrably false, in some cases, as there are at least a few of us who have successfully de-escalated scenarios where use of deadly force would have otherwise been justified. Being willing to use force if absolutely necessary is hardly a predisposition toward use of force. Your claim falls apart once your false, underlying assumption is removed. You are arguing with several lawyers and at least one nationally known instructor. If they all tell you that your terminology could cause problems for you or your students, you might want to give that some serious consideration. You might also wish to rethink your "deception" accusations. All the mods you are arguing with have, on at least one and typically on multiple occasions, advised both TFL members and real world students to never lie to investigators. In your last post you said you tell students to avoid buzz words. Why, then, do you insist on making a stand over "go animal"? What are those, if not buzz words? |
August 19, 2013, 01:30 PM | #137 | |
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August 19, 2013, 01:30 PM | #138 | ||||||||
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The problem is, the state has been given a basis for trying to prove otherwise. Quote:
Saying something like "don't say anything dumb" is just good advice. Quote:
The first is that the prosecutor can repeat the first part only, without the second, over and over, while your attorney will have only limited opportunity to counter the argument in his or her closing remarks. And the prosecutor will speak last. The other problem is that cited by Dr. Meyer:
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You have been advised of that here by several very highly regarded professionals on the subject. A defendant trained under the constructs put forth by pax will have easy access to expert witnesses who will be able to counter any criticisms of the concept. Your students will only have, at best, the potential of bringing you in to explain what it was that you meant to convey. Quote:
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Dr. Meyer has offered a different point of view. Dr. Glenn E. Meyer, PhD, is full professor in the Psychology Department at Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas. He received his doctorate in 1975 and has written numerous professional articles and books in the areas of visual perception, cognition and statistics. ... A convert to the world of defensive firearms, he has been an NTI practitioner & has studied with several well known trainers. Would you really want your students to be faced with the expert testimony of someone like that? Last edited by OldMarksman; August 19, 2013 at 01:37 PM. |
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August 19, 2013, 01:39 PM | #139 |
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Re: Mindset
Always be polite, and have a plan to kill every person you meet...pray you never need it, but get it done quick if you do.
Last edited by Ridgerunner665; August 19, 2013 at 01:45 PM. |
August 19, 2013, 01:45 PM | #140 | |
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August 19, 2013, 01:46 PM | #141 |
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And with that, I think this conversation has pretty much reached its limits. Thank you so much for the good, thought-provoking discussion.
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