5.56 vs .223 for Home Defense

[rickyrick]

The main difference is the ammunition.
We use milspec ammunition for blasting cans and other stuff that don’t matter too much. For meat based organisms, we have a lot better choices.

I don’t foresee myself using a rifle inside my home, but I have some .223 ammunition that I know without a doubt that would work.

[Sharkbite]

We use milspec ammunition for blasting cans and other stuff that don’t matter too much. For meat based organisms, we have a lot better choices.

And that says it all.... if i want to punch paper, i’ll shoot fmj. If i need to shoot for my life, its not going to be with FMJ if i can at all prevent it.

[Model12Win]

75 grain TAPS for HD work.

.223/5.56 is not a responsible deer caliber, and is illegal for deer hunting in many states.

[lordmorgul]

Originally Posted by Model12Win

75 grain TAPS for HD work.



.223/5.56 is not a responsible deer caliber, and is illegal for deer hunting in many states.

It is illegal in many states because anti-gun bigots do not want hunters walking around with AR15s and that is the most common caliber for them, therefore a target for banning. They also do not want as many hunters and it’s easy to ban these rifles which may be the only one someone owns when they first consider trying hunting.

If you can’t kill a deer responsibly with a 223, you suck at shooting.


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Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, SAF / CRPA / FPC member and supporter, USCCA Member

[Fishbed77]

.223/5.56 is not a responsible deer caliber

This as patently false.

While I personally don't hunt deer with .223, with the right hunter and the right loading, .223 is perfectly acceptable for harvesting the smaller whitetails that inhabit the southeastern US.

The largest downside to a proper .223 deer hunting load is not lethality, but the reduced blood trail that comes with the smaller caliber. This is where the skill of the hunter comes into play.

It is illegal in many states because anti-gun bigots do not want hunters walking around with AR15s and that is the most common caliber for them, therefore a target for banning. They also do not want as many hunters and it’s easy to ban these rifles which may be the only one someone owns when they first consider trying hunting.

While I don't doubt this rationale, it needs to be pointed out that bans on .223 for deer hunting in many states (most of which are more northern states where whitetails tend to grow a good bit larger than in southern states) existed long before AR-15s became as popular as they are today.

Of course, many states/localities still ban all rifles for deer hunting, which is of course pure nonsense.

.

[Sturmpanzer]

Wow, lordmorgul... I have several buddies in the Indiana DNR, and they all agree that a .223/5.56 is totally wrong for deer hunting.... Hunt coyotes all you want, but this round is illegal because it cannot guarantee a first shot kill...that means a walking kill as well... AR fanboys.... Its nothing personal, just reality... AR's are not super weapons...trust me, I know...

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There are seven states that prohibit .223 for deer size game. This thread shows an entry wound on a hog from T2 TAP that you can fit your fist in...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....08#post1131008

[rickyrick]

Exit wound, 50gr OTM.

[rickyrick]

One shot Mini14

[rickyrick]

All .223, required no follow on shots




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[rickyrick]

This was .223 as well... there’s several hundred more that didn’t get a picture taken.
The .223 worked well enough that I stopped using .303 Brit and .308 on pigs and switched exclusively to .223. I shot them night after night for about 4 years straight. Never had one walk away, except for one I shot in the head with a .45lc. He got back up.




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[lordmorgul]

Originally Posted by Sturmpanzer

Wow, lordmorgul... I have several buddies in the Indiana DNR, and they all agree that a .223/5.56 is totally wrong for deer hunting.... Hunt coyotes all you want, but this round is illegal because it cannot guarantee a first shot kill...that means a walking kill as well... AR fanboys.... Its nothing personal, just reality... AR's are not super weapons...trust me, I know...

You’re ridiculous. Yes 55gr FMJ is wrong for any deer hunting, but many other projectiles are acceptable suited to it. No one in this thread said AR15s are super weapons or that they are the ideal choice for hunting, it was simply stated they are suitable under some conditions and should not be banned as a matter of policy (poorly defended policy).

As even Chris Kyle said, it is the bullet that you hate, not the caliber.

And... banning 223 by caliber just because AR15s are “not super weapons” is ridiculous, there are plenty of 223 22-28” barrel bolt guns, and they work fine for deer with the right bullet.

Anyone can do a little research on this rather than spot off their inaccurate nonsense first, choose your path.

And seriously, the Indiana DNR as a point of expertise and authority on this subject?? Really?? It was 2016 before 30-06 Springfield was authorized. Seriously. No 270 Win even now.
“There are other cartridges that meet the law’s specifications, and there are others that do not. A partial list of cartridges that are not allowed under HEA 1231 includes the .270 Winchester, .38-55 Winchester, .444 Marlin, and .45-70 Government. “

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Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, SAF / CRPA / FPC member and supporter, USCCA Member

[Sturmpanzer]

I get your point... I personally have never hunted anything using the 5.56 rnd other than bad guys.....so without hunting game experince with it I will cede the point.... My uses with it were purely combat....

[davidsog]

The military is subject to restrictions the civilian world does not have. Civilian ammunition need not be subject to SS109 requirements, the Hague Conventions or the new lead free requirement. I don't care if my bullet contains lead, is designed to expand or can't penetrate a 1970s Warsaw pact helmet at some arbitrary distance.

The DoD isn't going to buy 62 grain Federal Fusion ammunition because it is designed to expand and contains lead.

There is some serious misunderstanding regarding what the Military can and cannot do or the technology it acquires.

The ICRC noted that several U.S. military manuals prohibit the use of expanding bullets but that three U.S. Army legal reviews of ammunition permit the use of expanding bullets when there is “a clear showing of military necessity

https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_...RC-Weapons.pdf

Make no mistake...certain elements of DoD inventory have access to the latest technology and will use it PROVIDED that technology actually works and is not hype.

The .223 worked well enough that I stopped using .303 Brit and .308 on pigs and switched exclusively to .223. I shot them night after night for about 4 years straight.

Well, you are well prepared if pigs break into your house with the intent to do you or your loved ones bodily harm. My experience in using it against people who intend to me and my teammates bodily harm was quite different.

It is putting the cart before the horse to think that Military cannot comprehend the issue or that these "wonder bullets" are somehow outside of DoD's capability to obtain them IF these "wonder bullets" solved the issues.

5.56mm is a fully capable of defending your home and our country. Either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

Plan accordingly!

I personally have never hunted anything using the 5.56 rnd other than bad guys.....so without hunting game experince with it I will cede the point.... My uses with it were purely combat....

Seems very silly to discount that experience based on pigs and ammo salesman.

[rickyrick]

I was in the army for a decade and a half.

Military ammunition is junk, bottom line. If you say hunting ammunition will not stop a person within the space of a normal person’s hallway, you don’t have any idea about what you are talking about.

Any ammunition can take multiple shots to stop someone if the Central Nervous System isn’t disrupted.

[Sharkbite]

Make no mistake...certain elements of DoD inventory have access to the latest technology and will use it

LOL. You are talking about maybe 1-2% tier one type units. That is NOT where the “556 sucks” arguement comes from. AND those units are not talking about what they are using.

I agree with the above post...you dont know what you are talking about. By you own admission, you never used anything close to what is avail to the U.S. civilian or LE market.

[davidsog]

That is NOT where the “556 sucks” arguement comes from.

That is exactly where the "5.56mm sucks" argument comes from....


The 5.56mm "sucks" comes from the only guys on the ground during the first six weeks of Afghanistan the major combat elements for much of the war in Afghanistan.

And we certainly got the ammo changed because of it.

5.56mm is a fully capable of defending your home and our country. Either you solve your issues with over penetration by giving up room distance lethality with a 5.56mm or you solve your room distance lethality problem with a 5.56mm by accepting overpenetration. It is one or the other.

Plan accordingly!

[rickyrick]

So, expanding ammunition is less lethal?

[davidsog]

So, expanding ammunition is less lethal?

The velocity of 5.56mm is high enough that even with expanding ammunition, you still have problems with thru and thru at very short ranges. That is what we found out. That is why nobody adopted the "miracle" 5.56mm rounds being heralded by some.

At distance it is good but room engagements.....not so much.

Since everybody likes pictures in this thread.

About 3 miles from Mullah Omar's house in 2002...

[rickyrick]

About all I can say is thank you for your service.

[davidsog]

My uses with it were purely combat....

Sturmpanzer knows what I mean!

About all I can say is thank you for your service.

Thank you for your support. It means a lot. My heart goes out to the Vietnam vets. I am glad to see the American Public has learned since then. I cannot imagine being asked by society to be judge, jury, and executioner of another man and then hated for it.

[Sharkbite]

At distance it is good but room engagements.....not so much.

How do you explain the success of the 556 round WITH appropriate ammo, in the LE SWAT world. Lower penetration then SMG rounds. Increased lethality. Fewer rounds fired per engagement.

Most teams in the US have gone ALMOST entirely to a 556 Entry gun. The round works GREAT with the proper ammo loaded.

Hornady TAP (in varies bullet weights) is right up at the front of the pack for LE SWAT teams. Right up there is the Federal Soft point. No FMJ or “open tip” bullet performs anywhere near those in soft targets, just not going to happen.

All of your experience is with ammo avail to the military supply chain and you refuse to accept that there are BETTER offering avail to the general population. Anybody can walk into Cabelas and buy OVER THE SHELF ammo that will vastly out perform Military ammo.

Sorry, but its true.

[lordmorgul]

The problem here is applying military doctrine to Home defense just may not make sense... the military has to consider a body armored target as possible at least, likely even, although in recent conflicts less so. In home invasion, exceedingly unlikely.


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Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, SAF / CRPA / FPC member and supporter, USCCA Member

[stagpanther]

All I can say about using either one for home defense--be aware of what's beyond your walls.

[davidsog]

How do you explain the success of the 556 round WITH appropriate ammo, in the LE SWAT world.

There is no great success in LE swat world. They are simply not putting lead into human beings on a large enough scale to make a statistically significant conclusion.

There are folks whose only job is to scour Academia, Think Tanks, and the engineering circles to explore emerging technologies application to the war on terror.

You think in a decade they just missed the "wonder bullet"?