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Old January 3, 2019, 10:02 AM   #26
Steve in Allentown,
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The slide should not be slamming on an empty chamber.
I completely agree except in this specific scenario. Allowing the slide to slam on an empty chamber a dozen times will not damage the mechanism. Doing so regularly like the Glock guys can eventually lead to premature wear particularly to a finely honed sear/hammer interface. It is considered poor weapon handling etiquette to treat a 1911 this way. But for setting up or diagnosing extractors it's an acceptable risk. In fact, I use an old beat up sear and hammer when I run this test.


Quote:
Also the gouge in the extraction groove rear face is caused not by an out of tune extractor but an out of specs one
There is some question as to whether or not the ordnance specs will result in the extractor claw contacting the case. I would say that no matter what the specs are the fact is that today's extractors do not correctly fit todays commercially manufactured 1911s. This is why the extractors need some attention to function properly. Even the much admired Cylinder & Slide extractors are not perfect and need some attention to run right.


Quote:
. . . the M1911 pistol functions correctly thank you with parts machined to specs and by rights does not need any tuning or enhancements
If all 1911 parts were manufactured and assembled by a single manufacturer then there would theoretically be no need for tuning or enhancments as long as their QC was good. However, the fact is there are a multitude of companies making 1911 parts and pistols using their own blueprints, tooling, and QC processes.

Why do Glocks, Berettas, XDs, S&Ws, etc, etc, have a reputation for running right out of the box while 1911s don't have the same reputation? It's becuase only Glock makes Glocks, only Springfield makes XDs, only Beretta makes Berettas, only Smith & Wesson makes S&Ws, etc etc. Everybody and his brother makes 1911s.


Quote:
. . . all this bevelin' and polishin' appears to be an attempt to correct defects in a poor quality part.
It's more like an attempt to get well made parts to play well with one another.


Quote:
Mr. Yam in his best form could not light a candle to Mr.Browning.
JMB is my hero. He and his crew did amazing work.

Uncle Sam issued me a 1911 almost 50 years ago that I carried and used for a decade in some pretty nasty conditions. It never failed to function except for the occassional tap-rack-bang but it was only accurate from the TC hatch to the front slope. It was not a bullseye pistol, rattled like rocks in a can, could be disassembled just by looking at it, and bit the web of my shooting hand.
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Old January 3, 2019, 10:17 AM   #27
Steve in Allentown,
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I consider Bill Laughridge, the owner of Cylinder and Slide, to be knowledgeable and respected regarding the M1911 pistol.
As do I.

Your quote of his has lots of good information. It's a wonder that the 1911 functions at all given the violence of its operation. Most people don't realize how the cartridges bounce around during the process.

The undue stress on the extractor due to a less than optimal nose profile leads to the obvious question of what is the correct nose profile? As you pointed out earlier, ordnace specs call or a rounded profile while we know that some current manufacturers use a flat profile. I'd very much like to see an analytical, head-to-head experiment measuring the forces involved with each profile.

Thanks for the link. I'll follow it to see what else Bill has to say.
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Old January 3, 2019, 11:00 AM   #28
Steve in Allentown,
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Bill Laughridge and extractors

I just read everything at the link provided by Aguila Blanca. It is very informative and I recommend it to everyone. One section in the Bill Laughridge article that I'd like to point out is here:

Quote:
Now let’s have a look at how the extractor is fitted in relationship to how it actually grips the cartridge. I have noted that most extractor hooks are too long. This causes the extractor hook face to contact the case in the relief angle above the rim of the case. This causes the cartridge to tip to the left with the cartridge base not being in full contact with the breech face. When the slide chambers the cartridge the cartridge is slammed straight with the chamber and the base of the cartridge is now fully contacting the breech face. All of this causes the extractor to be slammed to the right and back with great force. The face of the extractor hook gouges a notch in the case relief which also puts a great strain on the hook itself.
In summary and paraphrasing, one of the problems with extractors is they are too long from the firing pin slot to the hook. This is a major problem as it causes the extractor nose to pound into the case during every firing cycle. This shortens the extractor's life by putting undue stress on the extractor. It can also cause feeding problems. I do not interpret this to mean the profile of the extractor's nose needs to be rounded or flat. Rather it means the extractor's nose should not contact the case.


Another snippet from the article:
Quote:
dimensions for the Ultimate Extractor were derived by “blending” the Ordnance dimensions with the modern Colt dimensions
I have a couple of Colts of recent manufacture and their OEM extractors were replaced because they were too long and in solid contact with the case relief angle referenced by Bill in his previous quote above. I'm not sure blending dimensions from two sources had the desired results. I know that several years ago I bought two of Bill's extractors and found that they were too long for the Springfield slides in which I put them. Perhaps he has modified his extractors since then and they may now not be too long. Certainly I agree that spring steel is what should be used to make 1911 extractors and the article fully explains why.

One thing that surprised me is that Bill didn't address extractor deflection at all.

The writer of the article, Harwood Loomis, wrote, "No wonder most replacement parts have to be fitted in most 1911s." This is exactly the point I was making in my earlier posts.
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Old January 3, 2019, 11:14 AM   #29
Steve in Allentown,
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Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Thanks for all the great info.
I was about to buy and (try to) fit a Wilson extractor in my 9mm 1911.
Be careful. This was all about .45 ACP extractors.

The concept is the same in as much as you have to address geometry, deflection, and tension but the dimensions don't apply to the 9mm.

Additionally, there are two schools of thought on how a 9mm extractor should apply pressure against the case. One way is as shown by niemi24s in his drawing where the case rim is in contact with the extractor's tensioning wall. The other way is for the edge of the 9mm extractor claw to be in contact with the flat portion of the case between the rim and the bevel. It's more difficult to make the 9mm tensioning wall apply the pressure. It's easier to make the 9mm claw apply the pressure. Easier is not always better though.
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Old January 3, 2019, 11:33 AM   #30
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Thank you.

I have an Officers Model. 3.5" barrel. The last round was hitting me in the face. I did the test with the magazine out. All rounds fell down and went out the bottom of the magazine well. I tensioned the extracter too much first and it would not feed. I took some tension off and it worked fine. No more brass in the face. It also worked with no magazine.

Thank You
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Old January 3, 2019, 12:11 PM   #31
Steve in Allentown,
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Originally Posted by David R View Post
I have an Officers Model. 3.5" barrel. The last round was hitting me in the face. I did the test with the magazine out. All rounds fell down and went out the bottom of the magazine well. I tensioned the extracter too much first and it would not feed. I took some tension off and it worked fine. No more brass in the face. It also worked with no magazine.
Some years ago after putting together a 9x23 I took it to the range and was amazed at how far the ejected cases flew. I just chalked it up to the power of the cartridge until one day when I stripped it for cleaning and the extractor just fell out of the slide. It had zero tension on it because I forgot that little chore during the build. Once I got that squared away the brass no longer ejected into low earth orbit.

Having hot brass making a line drive for your face is no fun. As you discovered this is caused by an extractor that loses control of the empty case during cycling. The empty case ends up getting smacked by the forward edge of the ejection port which bats the case straight back at the shooter.

The reason it was only the last round that was getting batted back at you is because all the previous empty cases were being pushed clear of the ejection port by the next round in the magazine as it popped up or they were supported by the next round enough that the extractor was able to drag them back to make contact with the ejector.



.

Last edited by Steve in Allentown,; January 3, 2019 at 02:00 PM.
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Old January 3, 2019, 12:29 PM   #32
David R
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I have a micro 9 that throws them 20 feet or more. It functions, so I have not messed with it. Figured slide speed was the reason.

David
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Old January 3, 2019, 12:33 PM   #33
Steve in Allentown,
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Extractor length

A follow-up to the Bill Laughridge article.

The problem of extractors that are too long can be addressed several ways.
  • One way is to file the extractor nose so that it doesn't contact the case bevel. This works fine as long as not much material has to be removed. Removing material weakens the part.

  • Another method is to simply buy extractors from various manufacturers and use the one that fits the best. In my experience EGW and Wilson make the shortest. I wish these two companies would make their extractors out of spring steel like Cylinder & Slide.
    EGW
    Wilson

  • Another method is to install a spacer of the correct width into the extractor's firing pin stop slot then file the forward wall of the slot the correct amount to move the extractor hook closer to the breechface.

  • The final method is to buy a Harrison extractor that is made with no firing pin stop slot and machine the slot yourself at the precise spot needed to achieve a perfect length.
    https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-240-bg
    https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-8...hining-fixture
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Old January 3, 2019, 01:18 PM   #34
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Thank you for your endorsements Steve,duly noted.
Normally I just file or stone the nose until there's clearance and move on,never broken one and I doubt I ever will for one thing I don't engage in expedient practices like loading rounds already chambered.
They are inexpensive and widely available even if I did.
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Old January 3, 2019, 02:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in Allentown
I know that several years ago I bought two of Bill's extractors and found that they were too long for the Springfield slides in which I put them.
Impossible. The Ultimate Extractor wasn't introduced until first or second quarter of 2018. That article in the M1911.org magazine was its first exposure to the public.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; January 3, 2019 at 09:18 PM. Reason: typo
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Old January 3, 2019, 02:17 PM   #36
Steve in Allentown,
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
The Ultimate Extractor wasn't introduced until first or second quarter of 2018. That article in the M1911.org magazine was it's first exposure to the public.
Good to know. Perhaps I'll spend $40 to get one of these new ones to see how they compare to the unmodified EGW extractors I have on hand.
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Old January 3, 2019, 02:32 PM   #37
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I,for one,greatly appreciate Steve in Allentown's thread.

I believe it is a service to 1911 owners who are "hungry" for this info. Many folks may be better served by a good 1911 smith than DIY efforts,but in fact not everyone has access to a good 1911 smith.Most of the smiths that are skilled are between Boomer and Greatest Generation,which means we are losing them.

I find the information useful,and as easy to understand as it can be.IMO,being able to do extractor maintenance/replacement is a good skill for a 1911 shooter.

I fully expect there will always be different points of view.I'm happy to read discussion of alternative ideas.

I'm a bit disappointed by the confrontational tone of some posts. There are better ways to discuss as Gentlemen.

The style of Steves responses may serve well as a model
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Old January 3, 2019, 03:42 PM   #38
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I'm a bit disappointed by the confrontational tone of some posts. There are better ways to discuss as Gentlemen.

The style of Steves responses may serve well as a model
Hear hear!

I wish I could add to this, but you said it perfectly.
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Old January 3, 2019, 10:00 PM   #39
Steve in Allentown,
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I wanted to settle the question about obtaining permission from niemi24s to use his drawings in my posts so I dropped him a PM today. Below are the relevent portions of our interaction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in Allentown
The other day I posted two of your drawings over on the Firing Line forum to help others who were having extractor related issues.

I would appreciate it if you would review the post I made that had your drawings and let me know if I have in any way offended you by using them. If I have inadvertantly stepped outside the bounds by posting them, please say so and I will immediately remove them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by niemi24s
Hi Steve:

No need to remove those images. All 450+ of my images are in a Public Folder on Photobucket and none have been copywrited by me (or anyone else I know of). The addition of the credit line attributing them to my username is perfectly adequate.

Cheers, Niemi24S
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Old January 3, 2019, 10:03 PM   #40
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Wow kudos to you for going that extra step.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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Old January 6, 2019, 12:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
Quote:
As the slide moves rearward there comes a point when the disconnector rail is no longer in contact with the top most cartridge or the follower and there will be a sudden upward motion.

When you are talking about something that happens in less than a millisecond everything is pretty sudden not just one thing and amazingly all of that is taken into account for the function of the arm. Mr. Yam in his best form could not light a candle to Mr.Browning.
My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine, and which rattles out of the well along with the mag when reloading.
That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
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Old January 6, 2019, 12:42 PM   #42
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My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine, and which rattles out of the well along with the mag when reloading.
That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
The top round is supposed to assist ejection it is in the design.
Extended ejectors protrude maybe a 1/16"little more and that does not keep the top round down and prevent it from pushing the round being ejected,ok you are saying that it is only the last round that fails to be ejected,here you may be looking at more than one cause for the stoppage,a magazine issue? you'll have to do some careful observation of the malfunction and go thru a process of elimination to solve it.
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Old January 6, 2019, 01:27 PM   #43
Steve in Allentown,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine . . .
This is usually a symptom of an extractor that needs attention. The extractor is losing control of the case which could be due to not enough tension or a tensioning wall that has been radiused too high from the bottom. If this is the problem, as the case moves down the breechface it will get to the point of the tensioning wall that has been radiused and is no longer applying sufficient pressure against the case rim to hold it.

Areas "C" and "D" here: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...59&postcount=2

It's also possible though very rare that the J cut on the breechface was incorrectly cut allowing the case to miss getting solid contact with the ejector.


Quote:
Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
Entirely possible but contact between the ejector and the top round in the magazine is not a good thing. If there is contact, the continuous tapping of the next round in the magazine as it pops up against the ejector can bend or break the ejector. Think Chinese water torture.

Last edited by Steve in Allentown,; January 6, 2019 at 01:33 PM.
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Old January 6, 2019, 04:36 PM   #44
Steve in Allentown,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
I just checked a couple of Commanders to be sure I what I'm about to say is correct. If you fit a new ejector that has a nose so long that you can't eject a loaded round and you file the nose back until it will just barely eject a loaded round, empty cases will eject without any help from the next round in the magazine. I fit the ejectors this way purposely and they have functioned perfectly for many thousands of handloaded and factory rounds.

You can see what your ejector is doing by removing the recoil spring, sliding an empty case under the extractor, chambering the empty case, inserting a loaded magazine into the pistol, and then slowly pulling the slide back until the case is knocked off the extractor by the ejector or until the next round in the magazine suddenly pops up.

When I do this it's easier if I pull the slide off then put the empty case under the extractor claw and push the barrel back to chamber the case. Then I put the slide back on the frame and insert the slide stop to hold it all together. Then I insert the mag and pull the slide back.
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Old January 7, 2019, 08:58 PM   #45
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I join the call to make this a sticky in the smithy sub-forum. Thanks Steve. This was very informative, including the differing view points.
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Old January 24, 2019, 06:47 PM   #46
Steve in Allentown,
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Extractor length follow-up

The length of various extractors came up earlier in this thread.

I measured an EGW Heavy Duty extractor that I had on hand and it's length was 2.3465". I contacted Cylinder & Slide and found out that their Ultimate extractor measured 2.365". So the C&S was .0185" longer than the EGW.

If anyone has other extractors, I'd be interested to know how their length compares to these two.

EGW 2.3465"
C&S 2.365"

Length is defined as "distance" in the picture below.



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Old January 29, 2019, 03:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Be careful. This was all about .45 ACP extractors.

The concept is the same in as much as you have to address geometry, deflection, and tension but the dimensions don't apply to the 9mm.

Additionally, there are two schools of thought on how a 9mm extractor should apply pressure against the case. One way is as shown by niemi24s in his drawing where the case rim is in contact with the extractor's tensioning wall. The other way is for the edge of the 9mm extractor claw to be in contact with the flat portion of the case between the rim and the bevel. It's more difficult to make the 9mm tensioning wall apply the pressure. It's easier to make the 9mm claw apply the pressure. Easier is not always better though.
Thanks for the response.
Just got the EGW FPS fitted and radiused and added a little needed tension to the Ed Brown competition extractor.
The claw is touching the flat area at the bottom of the case groove, and there is a gap between the rim and the tensioning wall, roughly .015".
The claw in contact may not be optimal, but at least it sounds like a successful method.

I have light tension, just enough to hold an empty case in place in any orientation.

I know I don't want too much tension on the extractor with the light 12 pound recoil spring, that can cause feed issues too.

I think I'm going to try it as is with the claw riding in the groove, it's not hitting the bevel of the case, and I can always remove a little metal from the claw later. Tougher to put it back.
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Old January 29, 2019, 05:50 PM   #48
Steve in Allentown,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
The claw is touching the flat area at the bottom of the case groove, and there is a gap between the rim and the tensioning wall, roughly .015". The claw in contact may not be optimal, but at least it sounds like a successful method.

I have light tension, just enough to hold an empty case in place in any orientation. I know I don't want too much tension on the extractor with the light 12 pound recoil spring, that can cause feed issues too.
Sounds good to go. I'll be interested to know how it all works out.

As an FYI the ideal distance between the breechface and extractor claw is:
  • .060" for 9mm
  • .065" for 40 S&W and 10mm
  • .075" for .45 ACP
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Old February 4, 2019, 06:40 PM   #49
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Success!
Finally got to the range, +21º felt like a heat wave.
Shot about 50 rounds in the 9mm Kimber with no issues at all. Ejection was very consistent except for the last round of each mag which was a bit erratic, but nothing landed closer than 2' to the gun. Most landed at a very consistent 6' at 4 o'clock.

The small radius firing pin stop was a nice surprise, really smoothing out the recoil cycle. Felt like the slide was gliding instead of slamming. I thought that might cause trouble with my light target loads, but everything ejected about the same distance it used to.
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Old February 4, 2019, 07:25 PM   #50
Steve in Allentown,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Finally got to the range, +21º felt like a heat wave.

Shot about 50 rounds in the 9mm Kimber with no issues at all. Ejection was very consistent except for the last round of each mag which was a bit erratic, but nothing landed closer than 2' to the gun.
Ahh, the sweet feeling of victory. Great news.

The last case ejected wasn't the same as the previous ones because the last case isn't being helped out of the ejection port by the next round in the magazine that taps the previous case as it snaps up into place against the feed lips.

FWI, it was over 50 degrees in PA today. Tomorrow will be the same and then back to winter temps after that.
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