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Old December 24, 2018, 05:45 PM   #1
TruthTellers
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Bullpups for home defense

Had a thought recently after watching some videos on bullpup rifles and the hosts were talking about the pros/cons of a bullpup for military use and how they felt civilians were better with standard rifles like AR's, AK's, etc. It got me to thinking what circumstances I felt a bullpup might be a good choice for non LEO/military types and the only one I can think of is home defense as the reduced OAL helps navigate tight corners.

Now, a handgun will always be best, but not everyone can shoot a handgun well due to physical ailments and handguns aren't legal everywhere or can be near impossible to get legally.
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Old December 24, 2018, 09:50 PM   #2
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Why not? I have an STG77, a Tavor and an RDB. They have all been accurate and reliable with no problems other than a bad firing pin I originally had on the Kel-Tec but after it was replaced thee were no further problems. The shoot the same 5.56mm round as my ARs but in a much shorter package. You are right in that the shorter length of the bullpup is a big advantage in tight spaces. Kind of like when an M4 shooter refers to an A2 as a musket, a bullpup will make that M4 look like a musket in comparison as well.
As far as suggestions that people stick with ARs, that’s probably because that’s where the brunt of their experience and training lies and what they feel comfortable with. There is a different manual of arms with a bullpup that is going to be foreign to shooters that are heavily tied to one design. Same can be said of shooters that have little experience on other designs such FAL, Garand, M14, Mini-14, UZI, HK roller lock rifles, etc. Someone used to the selector lever and straight in magazine well on an AR is probably not going to feel comfortable with say the trigger guard safety and rock-in magazines of a Mini-14. Not that it’s a bad rifle, just different than an AR. It’s all a matter of training. I’ve seen Ausi troops in Afghanistan bumble around with my M4 but could handle their AUG variants like a pro because that’s what they were used to. As long as you are willing to put in the training time with a bullpup or any other non-AR design, it’s not going to be an issue.
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Old December 25, 2018, 02:00 AM   #3
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I think they have some good benefits.
I’ve always hesitated because I don’t want my face so close to the reciever.
Could be unfounded paranoia... but that’s my only misgiving.
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Old December 25, 2018, 04:29 AM   #4
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Eh, for the money, is it worth it over a carbine?

The RDB's have been crashing in price ($700-800)... but Keltec.

Tavor's are about double that, and AUG's even more.

Whereas, a decent AR15 can be had around $500. If you are into Class III, you could SBR it for not much more than the price of the Keltec. Throw in a suppressor, and you could still get out for under the price of an AUG.
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Old December 25, 2018, 06:34 AM   #5
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Sure an SBRed AR will perform adequately, but the AUG does everything better(strictly in the context of size, handling, and ballistics), so if those things matter to you, yes it's worth the extra scratch over a bare bones $500 AR. It's a matter of taste as well, but I wouldn't trade an AUG for an equal value AR in any configuration.
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Old December 25, 2018, 11:57 AM   #6
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Perhaps having hot brass ejected into your face would be the least of your worries if you had to use a bullpup to defend your life. But navigating around tight corners also entails the need to be able to transition the weapon to your weak side, and most bullpups are not well adapted to that.

Unless of course, all of the tight corners in your house only go in the same direction.
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Old December 25, 2018, 12:04 PM   #7
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Receivers explode on rare occasions.
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Old December 25, 2018, 03:14 PM   #8
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I've fired a Tavor left handed, and it wasn't an issue, Corvus Defensio makes a shell deflector for the AUG that supposedly does the same thing, the FS2000 is forward ejecting, the RFB is forward ejecting, the RDB is downward ejecting. The only bullpups that come to mind that realistically [I]can't[I] be fired from either shoulder are the FAMAS and M17S. So for gun games, I admit it's a genuine disadvantage, but in general I'm of the opinion it's simply an overblown/nonissue.
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Old December 25, 2018, 04:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozak6 View Post
Eh, for the money, is it worth it over a carbine?

The RDB's have been crashing in price ($700-800)... but Keltec.

Tavor's are about double that, and AUG's even more.

Whereas, a decent AR15 can be had around $500. If you are into Class III, you could SBR it for not much more than the price of the Keltec. Throw in a suppressor, and you could still get out for under the price of an AUG.
That is true, but my figuring is places that also restrict handguns undoubtedly also have NFA items illegal at state/local levels.

Also, a 16 inch barrel vs an SBR length barrel (which depends on length, but to get to the 26" OAL an AR barrel would have to be roughly 10 inches) is a significant difference when using rifle cartridges, a slight increase using pistol ammuntion, but the most noticeable difference in blast and muzzle flash.
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Old December 25, 2018, 04:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ttarp View Post
I've fired a Tavor left handed, and it wasn't an issue, Corvus Defensio makes a shell deflector for the AUG that supposedly does the same thing, the FS2000 is forward ejecting, the RFB is forward ejecting, the RDB is downward ejecting. The only bullpups that come to mind that realistically [I]can't[I] be fired from either shoulder are the FAMAS and M17S. So for gun games, I admit it's a genuine disadvantage, but in general I'm of the opinion it's simply an overblown/nonissue.
I guess that's a +1 for the KSG as it ejects from the bottom and it is a bullpup. Would be weird to work the pump with the off hand tho.
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Old December 27, 2018, 08:28 AM   #11
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Eh, for the money, is it worth it over a carbine?
Yes
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Old December 27, 2018, 08:43 AM   #12
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Sure an SBRed AR will perform adequately, but the AUG does everything better(strictly in the context of size, handling, and ballistics), so if those things matter to you, yes it's worth the extra scratch over a bare bones $500 AR. It's a matter of taste as well, but I wouldn't trade an AUG for an equal value AR in any configuration.
You can say that again.
The AUG isn't even in the same league as the AR.
In fact it's more like World Series contender versus sand lot kids.

Bought my first AUG in the 80's and it's still running 100% on original parts. I've bought several more over the years and the they are just as reliable, the last two were bought in '17 both STG77 models. Their durability matches the best AK's and the Steyr beats them in terms of reliability, simply incredible how well they run no matter the abuse.

Give me a choice between an AUG or a 2x higher value AR built, modded, and tuned by the best of the best...
I would still take the AUG without hesitation.
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Old December 27, 2018, 02:07 PM   #13
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The bullpup for military use is about one thing and one thing only. How the weapon fits into a vehicle.
Using a bullpup for SD will depend entirely on how much you practice using the thing. Same as any other rifle. And they're just as much about too much cartridge/penetration as any other rifle.
"...a handgun will always be best..." No it isn't.
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Old December 29, 2018, 08:26 PM   #14
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This is the real thing: https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Vi...12b-bullpup-a/

Was sort of surprised when Truth Tellers made mention of using a bullpup for home defense.
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Old December 30, 2018, 07:52 AM   #15
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The "bullpup" design is basically an attempt to put a rifle length barrel in a SBR sized platform. Who really NEEDS "rifle length barrel performance" at "in the house" ranges?
Come on, let's be realistic. Losing 200-300 fps of MV isn't a consideration when the range is 10'.
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Old December 30, 2018, 09:44 AM   #16
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I tend to agree with Mobuck. At home defense ranges, the extra velocity from a bullpup is meaningless but you lose a lot of the ergonomic benefits of the AR15-style weapons (reloads, clearing stoppages).

However, I now see things like 7.5” barrels on 5.56mm pistols. At that point, you are adding a lot of flash and concussion and you’ve dropped velocity to ranges where you have to be very careful in your ammo selection to be advantageous for home defense.

My personal take is 11.5” is the shortest you should go in an AR system in 5.56; unless you know what you are doing (and knowing what you are doing gets you to 10.3” minimum).
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Old December 30, 2018, 04:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
Had a thought recently after watching some videos on bullpup rifles and the hosts were talking about the pros/cons of a bullpup for military use and how they felt civilians were better with standard rifles like AR's, AK's, etc. It got me to thinking what circumstances I felt a bullpup might be a good choice for non LEO/military types and the only one I can think of is home defense as the reduced OAL helps navigate tight corners.

Now, a handgun will always be best, but not everyone can shoot a handgun well due to physical ailments and handguns aren't legal everywhere or can be near impossible to get legally.
I would suggest there is more to it than some have asserted.

Im not a huge 'AR' guy, I do collect rare or interesting ones far more than I actually shoot them, but a few observations. Comparing one of my STG77's to my GUU-5/P, the blast/flash from the GUU is wicked compared to the 20" STG. Now if such doesn't bother you go ahead and slap a 16 incher on the STG and its about a 20% shorter package, hardly insignificant, especially indoors. To me those are the biggest benefits in an indoor situation.

Now simply comparing the two platforms in general, there are still more BP benefits. BP's generally have a neutral or slightly rear bias which makes them faster to swing yet easier to hold steady, I also find that people can hold BP's unsupported for longer periods. Not exactly an issue for todays citizen defensive use, but still a factor none the less.

But for me the biggest factor for choosing STG/AUG over AR's isn't simply because of the BP design in and of itself, but rather because the Steyr is simply the far superior platform, and not by an insignificant amount. People rave about AK reliability, I love the AK platform, like bromance L-O-V-E. But the Steyr hands down beats the AK in terms of reliability, and Im not talking about crap AK builds but actual arsenal builds that are stupid reliable.

Go talk to actual end users of the STG/AUG, one thing you will not hear is anything about reliability issues. Better still, go talk to the folks who run the "Shoot A Machine Gun" operations like Battlefield Vegas, their weapons actually see harder use than military weapons. Which platform outlasts the AK and especially the AR (by far)? The STG/AUG. They simply dominate.

My first STG bought many decades ago (am I really this old? shudder) is still running on 100% original parts after a ridiculous amount of rounds (I stopped logging them north of 50k). One of my range Steyr's has never been cleaned since new and it is well past 25k, just lubed only a handful of times, literally 6 drops of MPro from a needle oiler.

The biggest squawk I hear about BP's "Oh the ergos suck and they are slow to reload"
Of course 99.9% who assert that have never even held a BP let alone fired or own one. Just because something is different doesn't mean it is automatically worse (or better), a bit of practice and operationally they no different than an AR, AK, etc. Ive met folks who carried on about reloading speed vs an AR, yet when we did side by side shooting drills I was almost always equal or faster then they were....and Im not fast. None of us are 'operators' so such things are are typically just puffing.

Benefits and advantages come in many forms, not just from OAL.
The biggest benefit is simply enjoying yourself
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Old December 30, 2018, 06:20 PM   #18
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British army uses L85 (bullpup). British SAS uses AR15 or HKs.
French army uses FAMAS (bullpup). GIGN uses G3 and HK33.
Australian army uses F88 (AUG derivative). Australian SAS uses AR15 and HK417.

It’s almost like there is some kind of trend when it comes to forces who have to use rifles to FISH. If bullpups were competitive, these military units wouldn’t be supporting separate lines of logistics and training.
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Old December 30, 2018, 07:52 PM   #19
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So, how did they get adopted as standard infantry rifles if they weren't competitive? And why would a special forces group limit their arsenal for the sake of logistics and training? Kind of takes the special out of the forces doesn't it?

France is currently replacing the FAMAS with the Hk416, due to lack of support, replacement rifles, and maintenance cost, rather than any flaws of the FAMAS itself.

I think I see the point you're trying to make, but you seem to be using some flawed logic to get there.
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Old December 30, 2018, 09:32 PM   #20
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I can only speak to my own experience. If bullpups of any brand were competitive, they’d be used in competition. Yet, it never happens. Maybe TBM900 is that one guy I’ve never met. Drag your rifle down to a 3-gun competition and see how it works for you. If you do better with a bullpup, then go that way and come back and tell us the time/point difference.
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Old December 30, 2018, 09:46 PM   #21
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Ah, so we're switching back from military use and adoption, to gun games. I stand by my comments in post #8.
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Old December 30, 2018, 10:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I can only speak to my own experience. If bullpups of any brand were competitive, they’d be used in competition. Yet, it never happens. Maybe TBM900 is that one guy I’ve never met. Drag your rifle down to a 3-gun competition and see how it works for you. If you do better with a bullpup, then go that way and come back and tell us the time/point difference.
The question I'm asking isn't if bullpup's are great for the military or competitions and matches, it's for home defense. The velocity gain isn't what I'm seeking, at those distances any barrel length would work, but 16 inches is the minimum before it becomes NFA regulated.

Further, if you're using a 20 or 30 round magazine, reloading likely isn't going to be necessary and any stoppage with a gun is going to be a disaster. Now, if you're stuck in a mag capacity restricted state... yeah, I can see 10+1 being an issue.
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Old December 31, 2018, 01:42 AM   #23
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Here is one thing you can do with an AUG that you won't be doing with a typical 16 inch AR carbine. . .

Hold the firearm with it shouldered and ready to fire while opening up a door with your other hand!

Being that it's so much shorter and that most of the weight is behind the grip of the firing hand, it's an easy task to have the thing pointed straight at a door as you open it.

Easier to move with indoors.

Easier to use while in a vehicle.


Lots of advantages to a bullpup design.


I would absolutely HATE to ever shoot any firearm aside from maybe a 22 with CB caps indoors without hearing protection. A short barreled AR? No thanks!!!


The AUG is literally one of the smoothest and most comfortable recoiling rifles I have ever had the pleasure of firing.

Do they do everything well? No. But nothing does.


I would seriously consider an AUG for home defense over an AR-15, provided you were to take the time to be proficient with it and to make sure it was set up to meet your needs.


I haven't had any experience with other bullpups, so I figured I would just say my piece as if the AUG was the only option... And to some people, it is.

I could see myself being pretty happy with a lightweight 14.7" midlength gas system AR-15 with pinned and welded A2 flash hider, and collapsible stock too.

I don't know though, a 9mm keltech sub 2000 might even be better than anything else for home defense as far as my preferences go. Short, almost like a bulpup because the mag is in your hand instead of out in front of the trigger like an AR. Super duper light weight. Easy to mount a flashlight/laser on the Gen 2 if that's your thing. 9mm out of a 16 inch barrel isn't going to perform on the level of a typical rifle, but it'll ruin the day of anyone who isn't wearing body armor and will be better than many handguns. 33 round Glock mags or even a plain old 15 rounder would serve well. And it would absolutely be quieter than any .223 rifle or 9mm handgun should you have to touch off a round indoors without hearing protection...

Hmmmm... A 2nd Gen sub 2000 is sounding pretty good!

Last edited by mellow_c; December 31, 2018 at 02:08 AM.
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Old December 31, 2018, 04:27 AM   #24
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Sub 2000 is also a lot less costly than any AUG I've ever seen
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Old December 31, 2018, 09:31 AM   #25
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I think Bullpups are great. Basically, you are getting an SBR sized gun with more power because of the 16" barrel. I recently purchased a K&M .308. Well balanced, crisp adjustable trigger, rugged all-metal construction, gas adjustable, over-engineered bolt and bolt carrier. Nice shooting gun - I only have put a small number of rounds through it, but is an accurate reliable shooter. I need to set aside some time to really test it out properly, however.

As for home protection? .308 is probably overkill and possibly an over penetration issue. The K&M, just a couple of inches longer than 2" (26.25"), can fit inside of a medium-sized gym bag. It's very portable. Very easy to stow and conceal inside of a residence, on a boat, etc. At 8lbs, it weighs about the same as your average AR-15. I'm not sure what else you would want in a very compact "battle rifle"?
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