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Old January 3, 2019, 05:06 PM   #126
HiBC
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Mike Fontentot

I don't claim the 10 mm equals the 41 Mag.

A lot of load books post test barrel/no cylinder gap numbers.Example,Hogdon says 1630 fps with a 210 jhp and H-110. Awesome! Read the fine print 10 .125 in bbl,and I assume a sealed universal receiver breech. Realistic Contender numbers.


At the bottom of the linked chart you will see a "real world" number for a Gold Dot 210 gr round fired from a 4 in S+W 41 mag.Its about 1200 fps

If you carry a 6in,you will gain some.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

If you go to Buffalo Bore,they show 1140 fps from a stock length Glock 20 using a 220 gr bullet.(4.6 in)

Feel free to disagree,but I don't think Yogi will notice the difference.

Yogi and I both may notice the Glock holds about three cylinders worth of ammo with no reloading.

Last edited by HiBC; January 3, 2019 at 05:28 PM.
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Old January 4, 2019, 08:20 AM   #127
wild cat mccane
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Recall too, on Buffalo Bore's website, he says 9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear.

Outside of XTP ("deliver deep penetration with every shot," Hornady), there aren't many good bullets that are constructed to go FAST without falling apart.

Speer (now owned by Vista which owns Federal) released their 10mm Gold Dot this year and it is rather light in speed. Might be a reason due to break up.

We still don't have an HST 10mm. Why? HST opens up fine. Too hot and fast in 10mm??? Break up?
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Old January 4, 2019, 11:32 AM   #128
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Since this is not hunting scenario...let’s make this whole argument simple, what’s the most powerful caliber that you can “spray and pray”

For me it’s anything around 200-300gr at 1200fps. It dun matter what the ultimate round is if you can’t handle it

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Old January 4, 2019, 12:29 PM   #129
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what’s the most powerful caliber that you can “spray and pray”
Have to disagree with this advice. Just as with self-defense on the mean streets, you dang well better hit what you are shooting at. And the more and sooner you can place your chosen caliber and weight bullets on/in the vitals of the bear or the bad guy the better.

All spray & pray is good for is emptying the gun and hitting bystanders. Ask the victims of drive-by shootings.

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Old January 5, 2019, 10:00 AM   #130
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50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data (link above)

Spray and pray works with bear spray. Also backed by data.
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Old January 5, 2019, 10:26 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
Recall too, on Buffalo Bore's website, he says 9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear.

Outside of XTP ("deliver deep penetration with every shot," Hornady), there aren't many good bullets that are constructed to go FAST without falling apart.

Speer (now owned by Vista which owns Federal) released their 10mm Gold Dot this year and it is rather light in speed. Might be a reason due to break up.

We still don't have an HST 10mm. Why? HST opens up fine. Too hot and fast in 10mm??? Break up?
9mm FMJ is sufficient for bear for what? Hunting or SD? Just another subjective opinion, made by someone wanting to sell ammo. Is it sufficient? Under proper conditions, in specif scenarios, probably. Not my first choice, but better than nuttin'.

Having XTP on the box does not always mean "deep penetration". I use a lot of them. Some are made for SD against two legged predators and made to expand more rapidly than some others. I've had mixed results on them on deer sized game as far as expansion and penetration. In .357, I would stick with the XTP-FPs as opposed to their XTP-HPs iffin' I was thinkin bear.

As for the Speer's. Iffin it still says "Gold Dot" on the box, it's meant for quick expansion and terminal performance against humans. If you want their similar bonded bullet for deep penetration, they now call them Deep Curls. They changed the name to differentiate them and to stop the confusion. Odds are, there is no "Deep Curl" for 10mm, as there is not a high demand for a hunting type bullet in that caliber. So, you're gonna get quick expansion, as designed.

One needs to know what they are getting, when it comes to bullets and their construction. Best place to get the correct info, is directly from the manufacturer.

Last, but not least, why are we discussing semi-autos and their ammo in the revolver forum?
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Old January 5, 2019, 01:13 PM   #132
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Last, but not least, why are we discussing semi-autos and their ammo in the revolver forum?
For the same reason we discussed bear spray. Options to consider outside the echo chamber.The possibility of learning something.

I;m not a Glock fanboy.I'm as tired of seeing "Glock" in print as I am of the latest on the British Royal Family,the Kardashians,and Miley Cyrus.
I do not own a Glock.

If I were going where bears are a concern,I HAVE my 5 in Super Blackhawk.It will do. A single action wheel gun.

But if I were to buy or recommend a bear protection handgun it would be a reliable,double stack 10mm. IMO,the affordable choice is a Glock.


On the topic of bullets: IMO,penetration is priority.Heavy,hardcast. I did link to a Gold Dot load for a velocity reference from a 4 in bbl S+W 41 mag.That had nothing to do with shooting bears with Gold Dots.I do not want an expanding jacketed bullet from a handgun to shoot bears

I've seen a 44 mag 240 gr JSP bullet stop cold in the neck/spine of a cow elk shot broadside at close range.She dropped stone dead,but penetration was not much more than 1/2 the neck.

I once found the head of a domestic hog at the dump.I leaned it against a piece of plywood and did some .44 magnum "ballistic testing" The expanding JSP 44 Mags went through the head,but stopped at the plywood. The pile of bullet frags was on the ground.Penetration?About 6 inches.Definitely less than 8.


Wheelweight bullets punch

Last edited by HiBC; January 5, 2019 at 01:25 PM.
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Old January 5, 2019, 02:15 PM   #133
wild cat mccane
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Taken straight from Buffalo Bore's website today, 1/5/2019:

"We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don’t want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9MM ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain with a flat nosed, non-expanding bullet. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress will take practice and cool nerves."

When you go to buy your bear loads, please let me know what company you buy it from. Double Tap also sells the same 9mm "outdoor" load. The "bear" loads are Double Tap, BB, and Underwood. All have the "Outdoor" 9mm FMJ 147+p.

As the diameter difference from any handgun round against a 9mm is physically nothing...it sounds like BB's owner is saying killing a bear, under duress, is hard. At 50% chance of getting mauled by shooting but not killing a bear is a flip of a coin, we recommend:

Bear spray.

Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 5, 2019 at 02:24 PM.
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Old January 5, 2019, 02:20 PM   #134
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Bear spray has a better track record then firearms.

But if spray doesn't stroke your ego enough....

Practice
Placement
Penetration

9mm S&W 3954

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Old January 5, 2019, 02:28 PM   #135
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50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data (link above)
That's not exactly what the article says.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/docume...vs_bullets.pdf
"...since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. ...a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."
The article does not indicate whether or not the bears were actually shot or wounded, it only states that people defending themselves with firearms end up being injured half the time

In other words, incidents where a person tried to frighten a bear off by firing a shot, or when the defender shot at the bear and missed, would all qualify as "defending with a firearm" but wouldn't involve the bear being shot or wounded.

It's also worth noting that the article doesn't distinguish between types of firearms, not even between long guns and handguns.

It would be interesting to see the raw data used to draw the conclusions in the article. In other words, to see what kinds of firearms/calibers were used, which incidents involved the bears actually being shot, and, to the extent possible, where the shots impacted.

My suspicion is that self-defense against bears with handguns is very similar to self-defense against humans with handguns. If you don't hit anything important then you don't get a stop, no matter what caliber you're using. And if you do hit something important you do get a stop, again, no matter what caliber you're using.

Anyway, the one thing that does come through clearly in that article is that bear spray seems to be more effective than firearms for preventing injury to the defender. I suspect that a big part of that is that it's pretty easy to use.
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Old January 6, 2019, 11:13 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
For the same reason we discussed bear spray. Options to consider outside the echo chamber.The possibility of learning something.
The reason I discussed bear spray is because OP brought up the subject of Bear Spray in his opening post of this thread. Thus it is not off topic. Bringing into the discussion a whole different platform is. My recommendation would be for a 12 ga. with slugs or a rifle, but neither, like semi-auto pistols, fall under the category of a revolver. Now if this was in the general handguns forum, or the hunting forum, I could understand.

Just sayin'......


Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
BB's owner is saying killing a bear, under duress, is hard. At 50% chance of getting mauled by shooting but not killing a bear is a flip of a coin, we recommend:

Bear spray.
Exactly what many of us here have been saying all along, even tho it is not what the OP wants to hear.

Again.....just sayin'.
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Old January 6, 2019, 08:54 PM   #137
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50% of all shot and wounded bears end up with the shooter being mauled. We know this from the link from the national service that tracks this data...
In addition to JohnKSa's comments, there is another statistical problem lurking here. How many people successfully defend against aggressive wildlife without injury and never report it? How many receive minor injuries and never report it? How many "reported" incidents simply disappear into the statistical badlands? (For instance, it gets reported to a hospital or insurance company and the chain ends there.)

This is similar to the data void in defensive human encounters in which simply the appearance of a gun deters a threat. An unknown number of those go unreported or improperly cataloged as well.
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Old January 6, 2019, 09:45 PM   #138
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bear spray has a valid place, with a firearm, not instead of a firearm.
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Old January 6, 2019, 11:11 PM   #139
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Just curious at what range is bear spray effective
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Old January 7, 2019, 01:15 AM   #140
wild cat mccane
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As I've stated above, 40ft at pressure. 110PSI vs water pressure in your house at 50-70PSI.

It hits hard at 40ft.
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Old January 7, 2019, 06:27 PM   #141
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bear spray has a valid place, with a firearm, not instead of a firearm.
Shhhhhh!

Dude!, that's not what the bear-perfume advocates want to hear.

You'll disturb their harmonic calm.
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Old January 9, 2019, 08:03 AM   #142
wild cat mccane
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Wait.

I assume you're an adult?

You are calling bear spray perfume?

Any reasonable person and mod should probably discount your opinion on this matter.
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Old January 9, 2019, 12:49 PM   #143
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I have no objection to anyone having an opinion different than mine. I think the choice between a firearm,bear spray,or both ,is a personal one.
Its OK to disagree.

But there is a line crossed when one person insults everyone who disagrees with him.

Agtman,feel free to use or not use whatever you please. I really don't care.

When my situation called for it,I used a gun to kill the bear. I had no bear spray. IMO,this bear fit the pattern of a predatory male black bear bent on eating someone. Per Herrero and the bear experts,once these bears begin attacking humans,they are likely to repeat,given a chance.

Which,IMO,might mean ,had I used bear spray,the next person who met that bear may have been killed.

I'm not interested in bear hunting. I'll leave bears alone if they leave me alone.

I have no insult or disrespect for those who use bear spray.There are different situations.
Agtman,you don't know me.You have no idea where my politics are.

You have nothing new to say.OK.We get it. You don't believe in bear spray.I'm cool with that.

Please tell me the story about the time you used bear spray on a bear and it was ineffective.

Surely for you to be so emphatic about what other folks should choose,you have something more than ignorance to base your opinion upon.


And my calm is not easily disturbed.

Last edited by HiBC; January 9, 2019 at 12:59 PM.
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Old January 9, 2019, 11:25 PM   #144
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A lot of good information and discussion. And, I have no doubt that we'll have a similar discussion again, perhaps when more information becomes available on the topic.

For now, before the exchange gets too heated, let's call this one done.
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