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Old December 5, 2018, 09:19 AM   #1
Winny
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What Does it Take?

Two part question here-

1. What does it take for your carry gun to "prove" itself trustworthy of being added into your EDC rotation?

I won't carry any gun that I haven't shot at least 250 rounds of various defense ammo through at the very minimum.

2. What does it take for a gun to be taken out of your EDC rotation?

For me, it is the repetition of one or more failures or malfunctions.

Obviously, ammo, shooting technique and maintenance all play a role here, but if i notice repetitive FTEs or FTFs or double feeds when adjusting all other variables I will no longer carry that gun.
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Old December 5, 2018, 10:13 AM   #2
AK103K
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I dont mix things up, so I really dont have a "rotation". I carry the same couple of guns, year round. I dont do anything different with a gun I carry from a gun I dont.

I would think if youre using a gun of known reasonable quality, its really not going to be an issue.

Contrary to what weve been told by some of the makers, none of them should need or require a break in. Based on a number of 1911's Ive owned over the years, the guns that didnt work out of the box, didnt get any better when they were shot.

I usually always shoot the snot out of a new gun when I first get it anyway, mainly just because its a new gun and I want to shoot it, so the first outing is likely going to be 2-300+ rounds, and the next couple of outings are likely going to be similar. They either work or they dont. Over the last 35+/- handguns (used and new SIG's and Glock's mostly) Ive owned, I cant remember one that didnt work 100% when I first shot them, at least with new, factory ammo, or reloads with new(er) brass.

Personally, I think no matter what you have, youre going to experience a stoppage at some point, and you need to be ready to deal with it. You should be well versed in malfunctions with whatever you carry anyway, and that should also be regularly practiced. You know how Murphy works. Your "100%" gun will likely fail at the worst possible moment, for whatever reason, so, best to be ready for it.

Most of my practice is done with reloads (using the same model guns I normally carry), and those reloads vary from new cases, to well worn and worn out cases, depending on where I am in the queue, so I get a random mix of all sorts of unexpected and unplanned failures, which I find to be great for "practice". I dont have to "think" about why the gun stopped running, I just clear it without thought, and go on.


I really dont think an occasional stoppage with anything is really something to worry about, its just the nature of the beast. As you mentioned, its not always the fault of the gun, so its just something you need to be ready for and deal with.

Now, if its a regular thing, then you should get it addressed, and probably, just better off getting something else.
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Old December 5, 2018, 10:29 AM   #3
Winny
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Quote:
I really dont think an occasional stoppage with anything is really something to worry about, its just the nature of the beast. As you mentioned, its not always the fault of the gun, so its just something you need to be ready for and deal with.

Now, if its a regular thing, then you should get it addressed, and probably, just better off getting something else.
Absolutely agree. I have seen a "reliable" gun come through and have repeated double feeds. Didn't matter what I fed it, or how clean I kept it, the thing would double feed any of the 4 mags I had for it at least once every 25 rounds. Couldn't justify holding on to that thing...

I did, however, notice this issue in my preliminary 250 round testing, so I never carried the thing, anyway.


Quote:
I usually always shoot the snot out of a new gun when I first get it anyway, mainly just because its a new gun and I want to shoot it
You have to play with the new toy at some point! haha!
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Old December 5, 2018, 10:41 AM   #4
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I have never had a malfunction of any kind with either of my 2 642s or my LC9. 100% so far. I have 2 rather new guns without the first malfunction but I've only put about 250 rounds thru each of them, a Dan Wesson Valkyrie 9 MM and a Glock 19. Based on past experience, both are prolly good to go. Won't know til I put some hollow points thru them.
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Old December 5, 2018, 10:54 AM   #5
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I do not do a rotation either. Unless you are sticking with the same gun (or same brand, e.g. Glock 26, 19, 17), you do not become as intimately familiar as you should. Find whatever works for you and stick with it. If it goes ~200 rounds with a variety of ammo I intend to use, then it is GTG.
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Old December 5, 2018, 10:58 AM   #6
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Quote:
or same brand
I rotate between a Ruger SR9, SR9c and Security 9 depending on my attire. The controls are identical on the SR9s and very similar on the Security, but I train with all 3 regulary.

But I agree, couple hundred rounds of mixed ammo is plenty of evidence for me.
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Old December 5, 2018, 01:12 PM   #7
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No rotation....that's for rotisserie chicken...think about police , FBI and the army, do you see them rotate the guns they carry...No Way
1.) Any S&W revolver, J or K frame .
2.) A new S&W revolver.
I tend to carry the same S&W for at least 20 years. My present was purchased in 2004 and shows no sign of needing to be replaced any time soon ..
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Old December 5, 2018, 01:39 PM   #8
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I rely on muscle memory.
The closest I get to rotating guns is using a P250c 22 in the pasture for killing stuff or a P320c 9mm for the concrete jungle.
Same holster, same grip module and same site picture.
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Old December 5, 2018, 01:46 PM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
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Rotation has two meanings usually:

1. Chosing a well practiced gun for a specific dress or circumstance. You know how to use the gun selected.

2. Having a slew of guns and moving through them to be 'taticool'.

I assume (huh?) the OP means the first. Thus, I agree that reliability and acceptable usage is important.
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Old December 5, 2018, 01:51 PM   #10
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Season, clothing and activity are big factors for me off duty. Pocket holster and 642 .38 for summer in shorts. Spring or fall, Sig 220 or Beretta M9 IWB. Winter... 4" N frame .44 Mag OWB or Model 19 snub or 4" model 10 in an OWB. And Plenty of speedloaders or mags, regardless of weather! Any gun I carry has been shot, proven itself and fits my hand.
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Old December 5, 2018, 02:22 PM   #11
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I typically carry what I feel like. Everything is empty chamber safety off so its the same operation for every pistol. Biggest thing is to have a gun and know how to operate it well.

For me to trust a certain pistol....

Other than reliability and ability to hit with

Durability of design and well vetted.

I am amazed people have faith in certain makers to just start carrying a pistol that hasnt been out for at least a few years.

some of my favorite carry guns everyone hates on...

The overpenatrating Tokarev that will shoot through an engine block covered by 6 layers of kevlar. I carry the 9mm though so no biggie.

The Makarov that recoils harder that a 44 magnum acording to some. Seems pretty tame to me.

The Sickly Sigma which I have been informed is not a Glock... no kidding... and wont fire through a magazine without some sort of malfunction..... meanwhile mine have never jammed....... Ever. The trigger is also not managable.... meanwhile I have no problem with it and am as accurate with it as anything else.

The ratty Raven which is known to blow up, jam, break, give you cancer blah, blah. Meanwhile it is my most accurate mouse gun beating out most high end pocket autos and has never jammed. I had to recrown the barrel because someone dropped it. Crazy accurate this gun is.

Keltec p11... nice firepower in a small, thin, well designed and durable package thats easy to handle and operate. Never had a FTF or FTE. I became accurate with it once I dealt with the overtavel on the trigger. Before that I could not hit with it.

there are others but I mention these because people seem to have trouble getting past brand name to appreciate well designed firearms.
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Old December 5, 2018, 02:55 PM   #12
Winny
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Quote:
Chosing a well practiced gun for a specific dress or circumstance. You know how to use the gun selected....I assume (huh?) the OP means the first. Thus, I agree that reliability and acceptable usage is important.
Absolutely the first. I work in a job and climate that changed my ‘EDC’ components almost daily, though the same types of items are carried daily.

For instance, I carry a knife (usually 2), 1-2 lights, a gun, spare mag, phone, keys, wallet, comb, and pen every day.

Within that EDC package, I cycle 3 guns depending on what I am wearing. I also rotate 2-3 flashlights. The comb may be a different brand, or the pen, but I will always have one.

For me, I carry 9mm ruger pistols. An SR9, SR9c, and Securty 9, depending on the attire for the day. Before I carried any of these guns, however, I shot 250 rounds of mixed defensive ammo before tossing one in a holster.
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Old December 5, 2018, 02:58 PM   #13
shurshot
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Magnut, Thankfully you didn't mention Taurus, or it would surely start a war. Ha ha!!!
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Old December 5, 2018, 03:54 PM   #14
magnut
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I would carry a taurus 92 variant. Dont have a whole lot of experience with the rest. Everytime I like a new one they discontinue it. They had some really nice models in the past they dumped. Those old sig/beretta mashups were nice guns... 908,915,945... I think those were the models. Pretty much beretta style frame with sig style uppers.

I did some testing and examination of that G2 compact they make. Pretty neat design and I didnt have anything negative to say about it. It will probably be discontinued next week LOL.

My biggest beef with taurus is not the guns they make. Its the fact that they wont produce models very long before discontinuing and parts can become an issue. I have a thing for keeping spare parts on hand.
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Old December 5, 2018, 04:11 PM   #15
FITASC
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Quote:
Everything is empty chamber safety off
Why?
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Old December 5, 2018, 05:38 PM   #16
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I don't change carry guns often enough to answer the question. I have one I carry IWB that has a few thousand rounds through it, with the only stoppages being ammo related. The other is a pocket pistol, newer, but with a substantial number through it as well. When they were new, I put two or three boxes of range ammo and two or three mags of my choice of defensive ammo through them, and started carrying them. They are both pistols with good reputations for reliability, so my thinking was that if I hadn't picked up a lemon, I was going to be OK.
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Old December 6, 2018, 12:55 AM   #17
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100 rnds range with no problems. Then another 20 to 50 of my chosen SD carry ammo. Haven't really thought about what it would take to not trust a carry gun. Haven't had a failure of ant kind with mine.
Rotation, or "battery"? LCP always in my pocket. Sig P320 Carry in IWB holster when clothing type permits. Ruger LCR 38 Spcl Winter coat pocket carry.
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Old December 6, 2018, 08:22 AM   #18
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Shoot it a bunch to make sure I can hit something with it/know how it works and to not have any failures..zero. Also use a holster that I find is comfy and conceals well(my other number 1 priority along with fun to shoot and reliable)

I only carry one type HG(Glock 42). I have a Glock 19 but that's too hard for this muffin top to conceal. I carry everyday.
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Old December 7, 2018, 05:34 AM   #19
JJ45
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I rotate. Sure, the adage "beware the one gun man".... no doubt has plenty of merit, but over the years I have acquired a few guns suitable for CC and actually like them all, NONE are safe queens!...I'll take my chances on thumbing a nonexistent safety, etc.

On reliability, you may fire 5,000 rounds with no malfunctions and get a failure on round number 5,001 or you might get a stoppage with the first magazine and then fire 5,000 trouble free....they are all mechanical contraptions and therefore all bets are off.
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Old December 7, 2018, 08:29 AM   #20
AK103K
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Quote:
On reliability, you may fire 5,000 rounds with no malfunctions and get a failure on round number 5,001 or you might get a stoppage with the first magazine and then fire 5,000 trouble free....they are all mechanical contraptions and therefore all bets are off.
Thats just it, they arent perfect, and you have to be well versed in your malfunction drills to at least be on top of things and ready for "that one" that comes, and usually at the worst moment. You just cant assume that the gun is going to always run. Auto or revolver too. A lot of people seem to think the revolvers eleinminate the issue, and they dont. If anything, a revolver stoppage is usually a DRT gun, and its not getting fixed without some sort of tools and some time.

I think where the differences come in is, the guns that seem to have a steady stream of random and unexplainable or even obvious problems, especially right from the start, need to be walked away from, at least for a serious gun.

I would expect the more you shoot the gun, the more likely you might experience problems, but thats not always the case, and when it does happen, its usually literally tens of thousands of rounds down the road. I think the reality is, most dont shoot their guns enough for that to be an issue.

As I said before, my experience has been, if the guns dont work out of the box, they generally aren't going to get any better down the road and are going to require "something" to hopefully get them straightened out. For me, that guns not going in a holster, "fixed" or not.
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Old December 7, 2018, 09:03 AM   #21
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I go with what works for me. Either one of my Berettas, depending on what I plan to do that day. My EDCs have always worked and I try to maintain them so that they always will work when I pull the trigger. Keep 'em clean and cycle them often.
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Old December 7, 2018, 09:57 AM   #22
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I completely agree with unclejack. I shoot my Glock 43 enough to know how it shoots and what i can do with it and out of the box it was flawless. I am not a law enforcement officer so i don’t need thousands of rounds out of a small carry gun. I just need to know i can use it, know my limits and i know it’s quality and darn sure it will go bang in the unlikely event it’s needed. From time to time I enjoy putting rounds into a target but my range guns get lots more range time
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Old December 7, 2018, 01:56 PM   #23
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All guns, especially semi autos, will and do malfunction. We just don't know when. Some are more prone than others. I had a Taurus that never in it's life fired 100 times in a row, 50 or 60 round at most. I did not carry it. If a gun fires 200 or 250 times in a row, in my opinion for what that's worth, it's good to go.
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Old December 7, 2018, 02:30 PM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
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Shooting competitions quite a bit and taking classes, I think I've seen everything fail at times. One good things about classes is when they teach malfunction drills with ones the instructor generates for you. Competitions will force you to clear and stay in the run, even though it tanks your time, it's good for you.

Every once in awhile, you get an unsolvable one in real time. Some are due to reload squibs or rounds out of acceptable length. The weirdest one for me was in a Glock were the empty rotated 180 degrees in the chamber and the slide slammed forward on it, jamming the empty edge into the spaces of the slide. No way a tap, rack was going to lead to a bang with that one.

As said, you can shoot a gun 5000 times and the springs break at 5001 from usage. Had that happen. We can argue for a BUG but that's a different debate.
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Old December 7, 2018, 02:58 PM   #25
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About 200 rounds HP without malfunction and I consider a pistol GTG with tested ammo and mags.
2nd pistol from left, a Ruger Night Watchman doesn't like Wilson 9 round mags at all; it works fine with Ruger and Colt 8 round mags. I've ran about 200 rounds of 150 Nosler, 180 Nosler & Gold Dot through the 8 round mags no problem; I'd be willing to carry that pistol with the tested 8 round mags, have not had it very long.
The other 3 pistols have from 300-400 or so rounds through each, all HP.
My two main hand loads (new brass)
10mm Handload 180 Nosler @ 1,228 fps / 603# KE
10mm Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE
Pistol gets bullet weight that POI best matches my POA.
The adjustable sight Ruger offers ability to make whatever bullet weight match POA.


My "carry rotation" has a theme, 10mm 1911.
ETA:
Delta has more like 500 rounds various HP through it and it has never malfunctioned.
Stainless Ruger, somewhere between 300-400 rounds no problem.
Kimber was locking back with rounds still in mag when new, I sanded contact point on slide stop and ran 300 rounds after that to determine reliability.
All have 23# recoil spring and 25# hammer spring
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