The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 2, 2018, 10:13 PM   #1
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
Kimber Camp Guard -- Buffalo Bore 155gr Tactical Low Recoil

Kimber Camp Guard -- Buffalo Bore 155gr Tactical Low Recoil





Recently I have been in debates about 10MM as personal protection. Unfortunately I seem to be the only one that thinks it is safe to carry 10MM for protection against 2 legged predators.

There were three statements that continued to surface in these discussions, from those that vehemently disagreed with me on 10MM urban carry.

1) The 10MM over penetrates and not safe in urban environments, it should only be used back woods country against bears.
2) The 10MM has to much recoil (that's why the FBI got rid of it) for good follow up shots.
3) Factory 10MM is nothing but watered down 40S&W (short and weak) why would I fight the brutal recoil of the 10MM for velocities I can achieve with the 40S&W.

Now most of these debates were with people I do not believe have that great of experience with the 10MM, no disrespect inteded. To increase their knowledge I pointed them over to the 10MM Loading Depot at http://www.dayattherange.com where I have tested many factory and my own 10MM loads and documented it.

This evaluation will be added to that data for future tracking. This ammunition exceeded my expectations especially with recoil. For the speed achieved I expected recoil to be much harsher, but it was not. Maybe there will be a video #2 that test this ammunition with the shot timer. My only concern is penetration. This projectile did fully expand but penetrated 19 inches of clear ballistics gel.

12 to 18 inches of penetration in clear ballistics gel without denim is my lens of perfect penetrating depth for self defense ammunition.

The TAC XP retained all of it's weight after firing.


https://youtu.be/kBfytoAkvB8

What do you think?
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.

Last edited by Mr.RevolverGuy; December 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 4, 2018, 04:15 PM   #2
magnut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 112
looks good to me. I would say go with it. Nothing wrong with 10mm for ccw. I wouldnt worry about overpenetration anyways. People tend to overthink this stuff. You may even have to shoot through barriers in a defensive situation.

If people are that worried about penetrating bullets they should probably carry marshmellow shooters or rubberband guns. The bad guys sure as heck dont worry about it.

Better things to be concerned with IE situational awareness.... hitting your target etc.
magnut is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 01:14 PM   #3
gwpercle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnut View Post
looks good to me. I would say go with it. Nothing wrong with 10mm for ccw. I wouldnt worry about overpenetration anyways. People tend to overthink this stuff. You may even have to shoot through barriers in a defensive situation.

If people are that worried about penetrating bullets they should probably carry marshmellow shooters or rubberband guns. The bad guys sure as heck dont worry about it.

Better things to be concerned with IE situational awareness.... hitting your target etc.
Very well said....I agree with you 100% !
Gary
gwpercle is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 02:13 PM   #4
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,170
155gn @ 1350 is only slightly above 40S&W performance. Id carry that load if the 10mm was my choice of defensive calibers.
Sharkbite is online now  
Old December 5, 2018, 04:13 PM   #5
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
Sharkbite,

If you are shooting 40S&W +P ammo you would be correct. I have only known Buffalo Bore to load +P 40S&W because of the pressure and unsupported cases. Other manufacturers don't dare go close to +P because of the liability. Even Buffalo Bore puts a disclaimer on their +P 40 ammo.

Quoted from Buffalo Bore

"There is such a variety of 40 S&W pistols in public use that we will not determine what pistols are compatible with which 40 S&W +P loads - this is your responsibility! We will add that this ammo is safe in pistols that use a fully supported chamber. Please read the safety notices below. The first one is taken from the Speer #13 loading manual. The second is taken from Hodgdons #27 loading manual.

SAFETY NOTICE

"Some pistols chambered for the 40 S&W cartridges may not provide complete support of the case head. If this condition exists, normal pressure loads such as those shown here can cause the case wall to bulge or rupture at the unsupported point. Contact your firearm manufacturer to determine if your pistol completely supports the case head, or ask a gunsmith to inspect your pistol before using it with ANY ammunition. It is the gun owners responsibility to know his firearm and its capabilities and limitations."

40 S&W WARNING

"This data is intended for use in firearms which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other conditions which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter or bystanders."

Glock happens to chamber their 40 S&W pistols without a fully supported chamber and both of those above safety notices are likely aimed at Glock."
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 05:29 PM   #6
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,170
Quote:
If you are shooting 40S&W +P ammo you would be correct.
Federal HST 155gn is going 1160fps (advertised velocity), so thats only a difference of 200fps. Id call that slightly above.
Sharkbite is online now  
Old December 5, 2018, 05:51 PM   #7
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
It doesn't seem like much velocity difference but let me explain it a different way then.

Federal HST advertised velocity 1160fps foot pounds of energy 463
Buffalo Bore advertised velocity 1350fps foot pounds of energy 627
Buffalo Bore actual velocity 1476fps foot pounds of energy 749
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 07:17 PM   #8
Brutus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Posts: 923
My 1911 10mm is shooting a 180gr. Hornady XTP at 1250fps.
I figure that's good enough for anything I might encounter and it isn't unpleasant to shoot.
__________________
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out,
Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen,
Winston Churchill.
Brutus is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 07:45 PM   #9
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,493
If memory serves

As I recall it Glock did make an undocumented change to their .40 S+W guns. I have seen pics that show the difference in an earlier and later production Glock pistol.
Rather a before and after if you will. It's been a few years since I saw those pics, I am sure they are still around.
The difference in case support is substantial. As is the instance of Glock Kabooms being far fewer. Yes back then .40 was the "flavor of the week" SD caliber. Far fewer folks shooting .40 S+W now vs. back then.

Not sure if the difference is the quiet fix by Glock, or fewer people shooting the .40, probably both.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 07:47 PM   #10
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
Brutus

Have you chronographed those hornady loads? I may have to give them a try.
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 5, 2018, 10:00 PM   #11
magnut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 112
wasnt there a change to the 40s&w case thickness as well. I might be confused and getting my info crossed up with another cartridge.

I actually like the 40s&w. I think it would be more popular if there were more lightweight low recoil loads for it. Seems like 40s&w runs like a +p as is. If there was as much variance in 40s&w ammo as there is in 9mm it would probably be popular again. This whole notion of dumping 40s&w for 9mm is kind of silly to me. I say practice with the 9mm (if ammo cost is an issue) and carry the 40s&w. It doesnt recoil or snap nearly as much as people make out. First time out with a 40 I was a little apprehensive. After a couple mags I was thinking..... thats it?

10mm is a whole other ballgame though. I read recently that you can take down a T-rex with a 10mm! Serioussly though its a neat round. I would say ideal for the 1911. In my experience you get the most out of the 1911 platform with a 10mm. Its especially nice in a long slide.

Maybe carry the lighter stuff in the first magazine and use some of that buffalo bore for your spares in case one of the bad guys morphs into a werewolf or bigfoot.

I would expect roaming pitbulls (which are getting very, very popular) would not pose a problem either.
magnut is offline  
Old December 6, 2018, 07:01 AM   #12
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
No change to the case thickness of the 40S&W that I ever heard of.
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 7, 2018, 12:02 PM   #13
rock185
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2001
Location: Out West in Rim Country
Posts: 852
Mr.RevolverGuy, I have owned,shot, reloaded and chronographed 10mm since the days of the Bren Ten. Back when the only available factory ammo was NORMA. But I don't recall ever carrying a 10MM. With appropriate ammo though, I would equate carrying the 10 as similar to people carrying .357, .41 and .44 Magnums. All, relatively powerful cartridges for carry. But many carried, and still carry .357, and a few still favor the .41, .44, etc. I actually carried a 4" model 29 .44 Magnum myself one winter, just to evaluate whether or not it was a practical carry firearm for me. It wasn't. But one of my fellow officers routinely carried a 6" S&W Model 29 off-duty. So carrying a 10MM, with well chosen ammunition, would not seem impractical to me.

BTW, I enjoy your videos.
__________________
COTEP 640, NRA Life
rock185 is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 12:12 AM   #14
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 6,735
slightly above

I'd suggest that 200 fps difference in velocity in HANDGUN ammunition velocities is a significant difference.

Add 200 fps to a standard velocity .38 spl in any bullet weight, and you no longer have a .38, you have a .357 magnum. A similar increase to a .44 spl enters the low end of .44 mag. Imagine adding 200 fps to a .45 acp/230 gr, yielding 1050 fps instead of the standard 850, nobody would call that a slight difference.

Adding 200 fps to the .40 S&W yields .40 Magnum, but they named it 10mm Auto.
bamaranger is offline  
Old December 10, 2018, 09:47 AM   #15
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 751
bamaranger,

Average speed was 1448 the advertised velocity was 1350. Ammo matched with the right pistol is key. I have fired this same ammunition in a longer barrel 1911 and it turned in lower velocity all from the same box, average was 1376.
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old December 30, 2018, 02:21 PM   #16
Brutus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Posts: 923
Mr.RevolverGuy sorry for the late response but in answer to your question, yes I did chronograph those loads which consisted of 180gr Hornady XTP over 13.8gr. of AAC-#9 shot out of a Kimber Target II 5" barrel.


10mm.180gr XT 13.8gr #9 Digital Link
Temperature: 73
Pressure: 29
Bullet Weight: 180
Power Factor Average: 224
Power Factor Low: 220
Power Factor High: 227
Number of Shots: 8
Minimum: 1227
Maximum: 1266
Spread: 39
Average: 1248
Standard Deviation: 13
Shot List
# Velocity Feet/Lbs Power Factor Date
8 1227 601 220 6/7/15 1:04 PM
7 1250 624 225 6/7/15 1:04 PM
6 1259 633 226 6/7/15 1:04 PM
5 1246 620 224 6/7/15 1:04 PM
4 1266 640 227 6/7/15 1:04 PM
3 1256 630 226 6/7/15 1:04 PM
2 1251 625 225 6/7/15 1:04 PM
1 1230 604 221 6/7/15 1:03 PM

Forgot to mention that the load was also very accurate.
__________________
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out,
Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen,
Winston Churchill.

Last edited by Brutus; December 30, 2018 at 02:35 PM.
Brutus is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08021 seconds with 8 queries