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Old October 31, 2018, 08:37 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 5whiskey View Post
... ...your reality and experience is not the same as mine. My experience is unique, as is yours. ...

BINGO!


I ride a train to the office in the West End of downtown Dallas. OC would be a very bad idea with the many 'characters' that hang out there.
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Old October 31, 2018, 08:55 AM   #77
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5whiskey nails it. The predominant culture in your area will determine whether or not open carry is acceptable. In my state, it's legal, but definitely not acceptable everywhere you go. Last time I open carried was to take a load of stuff to the dump. Aside from that, Concealed is the only acceptable way to carry.

Until a very few years ago, you could open carry in California (not loaded, though) but some people decided to make an issue out of it and carry wherever they wanted. Shortly after, even that very limited open carry privilege was legislated out of existence. Thanks to people who felt that exercising their "rights" was preferable to...

...well, anything else. People who just wanted to be on YouTube for some reason.

What's the saying? Discretion is the better part of valor?

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Old October 31, 2018, 09:30 AM   #78
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In PA open carry is legal and doesn't require a license. There is no brandishing law. However, If you start pointing it at people you may be charged with aggravated assault.

I live in small town America, less than 2000 people. Nobody cares. I have been approached in a big box store in a nearby town and ask what I was carrying. At the time it was an XD in 45ACP with a CTC laser grip. I have sat in the local eatery across from the town admin. building with the CLEO at a nearby table. we exchange greetings.

I have been approached once by a young "lady" asking me why i carry that THING. I told her years ago before she was born i took an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution and I include every one living under it. She hung her head down and quietly said, " Thank you for your service." I presume she was a student at the local university. We get a lot of students from nearby NYS.
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Old October 31, 2018, 12:51 PM   #79
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Living in Louisiana , open carry has always been legal , going on 70 years now and I've never had any problems. A local Cafe even gives you a 10% discount for packing heat !

Problems....what problems...we don't have no stinking problems !
Come to Louisiana and open carry all you want....makes the bad guys nervous , the last thing they want to tangle with is a bunch of armed good guys and gals .
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Old October 31, 2018, 02:45 PM   #80
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70 years now and I've never had any problems
How many violent predatory criminals ( on the prowl) have you encountered in that time. If you don't know, it would be hard to attribute OC as any sort of factor in your good fortunes
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Old October 31, 2018, 07:28 PM   #81
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Open carry without problems works in areas where there are no problems, it seems.

If in my 70 years and if I could, I don't think I would be problem free if I OC'ed on the crowded subway to Wall Street.
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:46 AM   #82
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I agree with that
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:59 AM   #83
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...your reality and experience is not the same as mine. My experience is unique, as is yours. …
and bad people are not confined to acting within your experiences and perceptions. Bad people are not confined to only the bad parts of town. Certainly some places have more of a potential to foster "trouble" than others but anytime a person decided to venture out into public spaces, you are typically only a respondent to what is happening around you. Sadly, we cant really control what other people do. I personally do not consider OC to be prudent no matter where I go.. I say that simply because I do not control the activities of bad people or their traveling radius. I may do additional things to preserve my own personal safety as go from place to place but concealing my weapon is a default no matter where I go or what day of the week it happens to be.
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Old November 1, 2018, 09:59 AM   #84
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Open carry without problems works in areas where there are no problems, it seems.

If in my 70 years and if I could, I don't think I would be problem free if I OC'ed on the crowded subway to Wall Street.
Who do you think would get you first, the NYPD or the hoods?
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Old November 1, 2018, 11:12 AM   #85
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I assume it would be legal in my scenario. However, a crowded subway and you couldn't trust anyone.

We were talking about OC at a match last weekend and most of the gun guys don't think it was a good idea even in our gun friendly state. Some folks chortle how they could resist an attempt to snatch their gun. I opined that the evil doers in our population aren't going to stand in front of you and announce " I am here to snatch your gun" - the incident might just start with you being shot in the back. Oops.

A few years ago, a SWAT cop got into a wrestling match with a burglar. The BG got his gun and killed him. Pretty close to where I live. I'm sure the average OC type is a better H2H type in their own mind. The two I've seen locally in the hamburger joint and WalMart would be child's play to disarm - like I said, no wrestling match, just a more lethal approach.

But YMMV is some nonurban areas.
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Old November 1, 2018, 12:32 PM   #86
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If one is going to open carry then one must be aware of the downside. I agree with the author in so far as often the practice does not reflect well upon gun owners.

The author is correct too in that simply having a weapon does little in an of itself. Lots of folks have been killed after bringing the gun to what would have been a fistfight. Open Carry increases your vulnerability and weapon retention is a factor to consider.

CCW is much more useful IMHO. Best to maintain the "quiet professional", work to de escalate a situation, and should it be appropriate that deadly force is required...use it expeditiously, overwhelmingly, accurately, until the threat is ended.

If you can do that without firing a shot....so much the better.
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Old November 1, 2018, 01:06 PM   #87
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Shouldn't all LEO's carry concealed if it is such a bad idea to open carry?
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Old November 1, 2018, 01:21 PM   #88
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It is assumed in the USA, at least, that officers are armed. Also, the gun for them is part of an authoritarian presence, which it is not for a civilian.

Open carry is also necessitated for the average officer given all the gear they also wear on their belts. A cover garment except for weather would be a handicap for all that stuff.

Detectives usually conceal as they don't wear the full rig.

Once identified as a LEO, it is a moot point about carry.

Also, note that 30% of officers are shot with their own gun.
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Old November 1, 2018, 03:31 PM   #89
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Weapon retention was and is a big part of officer training. Even so, back when I was a street cop it was pretty commonly understood that in the field anywhere from a third to a half of the officers killed on patrol who did not die in automobile accidents were killed with their own weapons. I don't personally really know how precise those stats were but I took them very seriously. In the US, if you're in a law enforcement officer's uniform the public will expect/assume that you are armed. It serves little tactical use to conceal under those circumstances especially considering all the crap you carry on your bat belt. Most plain clothes officers use the tactical advantage of carrying concealed unless they are trying to "look" official. Having said that, even including station house shenanigans by the occasional moron officer NOBODY ever successfully got to my gun. Admittedly though, some of that may have been due to blind luck but not by much. I’ve been involved in a half dozen shootings, I’ve been shot twice, and on another half dozen or so occasions individuals have tried to stab and/or cut me with sharp and/or edged weapons. I would suggest thinking long and hard before you decide to open carry. There are many people out there who have little to no fear of armed cops. I can guarantee that at least as many will have no fear of you.
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Old November 1, 2018, 03:44 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Leaf View Post
There are many people out there who have little to no fear of armed cops. I can guarantee that at least as many will have no fear of you.
Hence the Concealed Carry threat of “death from the unknown”.
If every threat to an evildoer only had to worry about OC, their threat assessment and situational awareness would be trivial.
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Old November 1, 2018, 04:43 PM   #91
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However, a crowded subway and you couldn't trust anyone.
In grew up in NYC, and folks are quite adept at picking your pocket without you realizing it. A visible gun would be like taking candy from a baby.
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Old November 1, 2018, 05:01 PM   #92
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Shouldn't all LEO's carry concealed if it is such a bad idea to open carry?
I suspect that you misunderstand the implication. A Police Officer conducting Police business, driving a Police car and wearing a Police uniform has already presented himself as the most obvious threat to a badguy intent on bad deeds. There would be no need for a Police Officer to conceal his/her weapon in that context.

Just about any LEO is going to tell you that they conceal their firearm while off duty same as any other well trained professional. People typically concealed their firearms from view because it is generally accepted as being conducive toward 2 critical strategic benefits.. time and initiative. You may not have either if you freely announce your status of being armed.. where and by what means. It all goes back to the understanding that in a violent armed confrontation, a target hierarchy is something the attacker is going to develop either consciously or subconsciously. You don't want to be in a grand hurry to add yourself to that potential formula. I know I don't
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Old November 1, 2018, 05:14 PM   #93
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One instructor I had, for what was actually a 2 day course on concealed carry, was a police officer for a large metropolitan department. He told us that gang members and criminals in his area would work in groups and target single people they believed to be carrying, concealed or otherwise, to steal their firearms. I didn't get the impression he was making it up.

I've had numerous officers tell me that one of the biggest differences they've seen over the course of their careers is that police presence is no longer the deterrent it once was. Whereas once they would show up to a scene and people would retreat from what was an armed presence of authority, the reaction of bystanders was now to take out their cell phones and get right in the faces of the officers and to close to distances well within the 21 foot rule. To me if you're working under the perception that the appearance of you being armed will deter a threat, I think you're mistaken.

I have also seen firsthand a woman in a force on force scenario draw on two men who closed on her and eventually shoot one of the men despite her carrying concealed. She was not at the time being attacked, and in the scenario had she not drawn they wouldn't have known she was carrying. The end result was she killed one of them when others passed the scenario without ever discharging their firearms. Displaying and presenting a firearm into an engagement raises the threat level when at times you might be able to walk away. Carrying openly might take away that opportunity.

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Old November 1, 2018, 05:22 PM   #94
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To me if you're working under the perception that the appearance of you being armed will deter a threat, I think you're mistaken.
In all honesty, it can to some degree in some instances. That said, I agree that its simply naïve to be overly confident of its potential to deter dangerous and motivated predators. It will likely deter plenty of people who were never a threat to begin with.

I wont paint every OCer with the same brush but speaking generally, I think that citizen OC is mostly about attention, activism and efforts toward social engineering .. not self defense.
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Old November 1, 2018, 05:44 PM   #95
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I would agree that if you open carry you need a heighten sense of situational awareness. The sad part is I don't know of anyway to teach it. I did have someone attempt to take my pistol. They needed a trip to the ER after the attempt. No, I didn't shoot them.
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Old November 1, 2018, 06:40 PM   #96
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I agree that people should always pay attention but if you are talking about actually having a handle on what is going on around you in very fluid public spaces that you do not control or what is in the minds of all people standing at arms length..good luck with all that because its unrealistic when you are working alone. Observations conducted by one person, utilizing 180 primary and supplemented with intermittent 360 at eye level is rather fleeting. Awareness can certainly grant you seconds that you otherwise may not have had but I seriously doubt that its going to make up the difference between good and poor tactics. Good guys are already behind the curve, I don't want to freely give away the advantages that I have left.
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:08 PM   #97
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Shouldn't all LEO's carry concealed if it is such a bad idea to open carry?
Additionally, a large percentage of LEO’s are carrying in holsters with significant retention. I wont get into specifics, but it takes a bit of know how to get that gun out.
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:21 PM   #98
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and lets not forget that the "gun grab" is not the only potential peril.
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Old November 2, 2018, 09:14 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
If one is going to open carry then one must be aware of the downside. I agree with the author in so far as often the practice does not reflect well upon gun owners.

The author is correct too in that simply having a weapon does little in an of itself. Lots of folks have been killed after bringing the gun to what would have been a fistfight. Open Carry increases your vulnerability and weapon retention is a factor to consider.

CCW is much more useful IMHO. Best to maintain the "quiet professional", work to de escalate a situation, and should it be appropriate that deadly force is required...use it expeditiously, overwhelmingly, accurately, until the threat is ended.

If you can do that without firing a shot....so much the better.
I agree..it seems OC solves no problem, answers no question but 'causes' lots of potential problems for the carrier. Saw a gent open carry at an outdoor mall, only time I've seen this 'in the wild'(Broomfield)...'maybe' 10 minutes before he was approached by a LEO..didn't hear the conversation, don't know the outcome. OC is legal here..
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Old November 2, 2018, 10:27 AM   #100
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Shouldn't all LEO's carry concealed if it is such a bad idea to open carry?
That was a ridiculous thing to say. A uniformed cop should hide his sidearm? Won't that make it even harder to deploy? won't it also reduce the effectiveness of his presence?

Is there any reason at all to believe that open carry by a police officer carries the same risks and benefits that it does to a quail hunter, or to a woman who walks to work every day in a bad part of town?

Apples and oysters.
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