St Louis Couple Served, AR confiscated - Page 4

**Aguila Blanca** · July 20, 2020, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

McCloskeys have been charged with felony unlawful use of a weapon:
https://www.timesunion.com/news/arti...h-15421237.php

All I see is a headline ... no article.

Geezerbiker · July 20, 2020, 07:29 PM

Being charged isn't the same as being found guilty. This whole thing could end up being swept under the rug...

Tony

TXAZ · July 20, 2020, 07:53 PM

Looks like the MO AG just stepped in dismiss the indictment.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/missouri-...-guns-at-crowd

**44 AMP** · July 21, 2020, 01:04 AM

Looks like its now up to a court to decide who has the "bigger stick" the St Louis city prosecutor or the state Attorney General.

pass the popcorn, my bet is on the state AG...

**Aguila Blanca** · July 21, 2020, 08:09 AM

It will probably come down to whether or not the judge has an agenda (other than respecting the law).

**44 AMP** · July 21, 2020, 02:22 PM

With the state AG seeking to have the charges dropped and the state Governor in the background, using the word "pardon" as a possible, even a judge who personally agrees with the city prosecutor has to consider the kind of fool they will be seen to be if they allow the case to proceed.

Possible the court will quash the charges.

Possible the court will not, and allow the case to proceed, because of a belief it has merit.

Also possible the court could allow the case to proceed with the expectation that the City Attorney will LOSE, and this foolishness become part of her permanent political record. Also possible that even if she wins the judgement against the homeowners they could be pardoned, again showing the City Attorney's poor judgement.

I also note the charges are FELONY level. I think this also could make a difference. Felony charges, (no matter if the sentence is jail, community service or some "educational counseling") is not a slap on the wrist thing.
Felony conviction, no matter the actual sentence imposed, means loss of firearms rights, at the least.

I think, even some people who agree that "pointing guns" without clear justification is an offense, that in this case, felony charges are too much. Seems a bit vindictive....

As I predicted earlier, it seems a lot of people are seeing this as "threatened homeowners vs. mob" and that by defending themselves with a show of arms, (and nothing more) that the homeowners didn't do anything seriously wrong.

Also, this is St Louis, not NYC, Boston, LA or Chicago, and what might be met with public approval in those places night not go over so well in Missouri.

eagerly awaiting the "next episode" of this drama...

SHR970 · July 21, 2020, 05:17 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a felony conviction automatically result in disbarment hearings for an attorney in most states? If my understanding is true then the DA is seeking to cancel both of them and destroy their livelihoods.

Sharkbite · July 21, 2020, 05:49 PM

This couple has become high stakes poker chips in a political battle.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 21, 2020, 07:18 PM

I don’t know what a “circuit attorney” is in St. Louis. It seems equivalent to a county/city DA. If a DA picks a fight with a wealthy plaintiff’s lawyer, they’ll lose about 80% of the time.

The DA here has a bunch of Soros cash and leverage to use; but the plaintiff’s lawyer has all his own resources, plus a Governor and State Attorney General. It should be a good fight; but the odds aren’t in the prosecutor’s favor.

ghbucky · July 22, 2020, 10:05 AM

Well, here's a disgusting update:
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/lo...=snd-autopilot

Quote:

ST. LOUIS — The gun Patricia McCloskey waved at protesters was inoperable when it arrived at the St. Louis police crime lab, but crime lab experts reassembled it and wrote that it was “readily capable of lethal use” in charging documents filed Monday, 5 On Your Side has learned.

In Missouri, police and prosecutors must prove that a weapon is “readily” capable of lethal use when it is used in the type of crime with which the McCloskeys have been charged.

[edit] isn't this called 'tampering with evidence?

ghbucky · July 22, 2020, 10:18 AM

OK, so further thoughts on this development:

At first I was rather freaked out that a police crime lab would do this. But then I realized what happened is that the prosecutor ordered the lab to do that, and they followed orders, but someone in the lab documented what they had done and went to the press.

So, at least they publicized what was done.

**44 AMP** · July 22, 2020, 03:32 PM

I believe the reasoning here is that while the pistol was inoperative when "obtained" by the police, having the crime lab "prove" it was readily restorable to functional condition would support the argument that it WAS a functional firearm at the time of the incident, and was rendered inoperable before being surrendered to the police.

Its smoke and mirrors....

However, there are laws where what might be possible is a crime, when what actually exists is not. Loaded firearm in a vehicle is one of those. Some places take the reasonable approach that if there is no ammunition in the gun, it is not loaded. Other places have in law that having ammunition with the gun, but not in it, = loaded gun.

Another example is the law about silencers. That one is written so it is the intent to silence the gun is the crime, and whether the silencer device actually works, or not doesn't matter.

I'll let the fine folks in Missouri decide what their laws mean, and not worry about "puff pieces" the media reports so they have something to report on.

July 20, 2020, 07:53 PM	#78
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Looks like the MO AG just stepped in dismiss the indictment. https://www.foxnews.com/us/missouri-...-guns-at-crowd __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

July 21, 2020, 01:04 AM	#79
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,803	Looks like its now up to a court to decide who has the "bigger stick" the St Louis city prosecutor or the state Attorney General. pass the popcorn, my bet is on the state AG... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 21, 2020, 08:09 AM	#80
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,458	It will probably come down to whether or not the judge has an agenda (other than respecting the law). __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

July 21, 2020, 02:22 PM	#81
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,803	With the state AG seeking to have the charges dropped and the state Governor in the background, using the word "pardon" as a possible, even a judge who personally agrees with the city prosecutor has to consider the kind of fool they will be seen to be if they allow the case to proceed. Possible the court will quash the charges. Possible the court will not, and allow the case to proceed, because of a belief it has merit. Also possible the court could allow the case to proceed with the expectation that the City Attorney will LOSE, and this foolishness become part of her permanent political record. Also possible that even if she wins the judgement against the homeowners they could be pardoned, again showing the City Attorney's poor judgement. I also note the charges are FELONY level. I think this also could make a difference. Felony charges, (no matter if the sentence is jail, community service or some "educational counseling") is not a slap on the wrist thing. Felony conviction, no matter the actual sentence imposed, means loss of firearms rights, at the least. I think, even some people who agree that "pointing guns" without clear justification is an offense, that in this case, felony charges are too much. Seems a bit vindictive.... As I predicted earlier, it seems a lot of people are seeing this as "threatened homeowners vs. mob" and that by defending themselves with a show of arms, (and nothing more) that the homeowners didn't do anything seriously wrong. Also, this is St Louis, not NYC, Boston, LA or Chicago, and what might be met with public approval in those places night not go over so well in Missouri. eagerly awaiting the "next episode" of this drama... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 22, 2020, 03:32 PM	#87
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,803	I believe the reasoning here is that while the pistol was inoperative when "obtained" by the police, having the crime lab "prove" it was readily restorable to functional condition would support the argument that it WAS a functional firearm at the time of the incident, and was rendered inoperable before being surrendered to the police. Its smoke and mirrors.... However, there are laws where what might be possible is a crime, when what actually exists is not. Loaded firearm in a vehicle is one of those. Some places take the reasonable approach that if there is no ammunition in the gun, it is not loaded. Other places have in law that having ammunition with the gun, but not in it, = loaded gun. Another example is the law about silencers. That one is written so it is the intent to silence the gun is the crime, and whether the silencer device actually works, or not doesn't matter. I'll let the fine folks in Missouri decide what their laws mean, and not worry about "puff pieces" the media reports so they have something to report on. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 20, 2020, 07:29 PM	#77
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	Being charged isn't the same as being found guilty. This whole thing could end up being swept under the rug... Tony

July 21, 2020, 05:17 PM	#82
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a felony conviction automatically result in disbarment hearings for an attorney in most states? If my understanding is true then the DA is seeking to cancel both of them and destroy their livelihoods.

July 21, 2020, 05:49 PM	#83
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	This couple has become high stakes poker chips in a political battle.

July 21, 2020, 07:18 PM	#84
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	I don’t know what a “circuit attorney” is in St. Louis. It seems equivalent to a county/city DA. If a DA picks a fight with a wealthy plaintiff’s lawyer, they’ll lose about 80% of the time. The DA here has a bunch of Soros cash and leverage to use; but the plaintiff’s lawyer has all his own resources, plus a Governor and State Attorney General. It should be a good fight; but the odds aren’t in the prosecutor’s favor.

July 22, 2020, 10:18 AM	#86
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	OK, so further thoughts on this development: At first I was rather freaked out that a police crime lab would do this. But then I realized what happened is that the prosecutor ordered the lab to do that, and they followed orders, but someone in the lab documented what they had done and went to the press. So, at least they publicized what was done.

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