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Old October 20, 2020, 06:30 PM   #51
luger fan
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Or maybe he has a life and doesn't spend his life on gun sites? There is a lot of us out there.
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Old October 20, 2020, 06:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.
He also hasn't been back on this site since approximately 17 minutes after posting his magnum opus. There's no way of knowing what his motive was for posting but, IMHO, there's no reason to post anything more in this thread unless he returns to defend his position.

I think we should all back off and allow this thread to find its way into oblivion.
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Old October 20, 2020, 07:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426 View Post
The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

Considering the links are to a variety of YouTube pages, a number of them well known, I’m going to say getting more views wasn’t his motive.


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Old October 20, 2020, 07:50 PM   #54
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Or maybe he has a life and doesn't spend his life on gun sites? There is a lot of us out there.
This is one of those ( stir the pot) posts. I never had any real expectation of the OP returning after post one. It doesnt mean that he wont return to contribute but its not what I expect. This isnt the only forum where this post has surfaced.
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Old October 21, 2020, 12:08 AM   #55
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Valid points but beyond the scope of my question. #1 and #2 are about shooting and my question about using actual firearms over replicas stops deliberately stops short of actual firing.
#3, I don't understand. When, (and how?) is an unloaded firearm "too dangerous to use"?????
and #4 simply doesn't apply to my point, legal restrictions in other countries are not my concern here.
If you have a question but the scope of the answers you are interested in is quite narrow, it's simpler to specify that scope initially instead of asking a broad question, getting a lot of valid answers and then having to narrow things down.

1. There are specific uses of airsoft that REQUIRE firing the gun in situations where it would be pointless to use an inert gun of some sort. If the goal is to use the gun as a kind of simulated firearm where hits can be scored, say, on another person during a FOF exercise, clearly an unloaded gun can't do that, and using a loaded gun to shoot at another person would be insanity.

2. Although unloaded firearms aren't dangerous at all (excepting, of course, the Swedish Ljungman that took a chunk out of my thumb ), we see a significant number of "unloaded firearms" that are discharged because they aren't really unloaded at all. Using an airsoft eliminates the possibility that a live round of firearm ammunition could be discharged.

3. What airsoft doesn't replicate is the firing behavior/recoil behavior of the firearm. It can be used, for example, for draw practice (or practice from a ready position) where a single shot is fired and then it is a pretty good trainer for the same action with a firearm. If you want to fire multiple shots, the training benefit falls off considerably because the recoil behavior is markedly different. Obviously an airsoft can be used for that kind of training (single shot from draw or ready) in situations (e.g. a living room) where it would be difficult, impossible, or unsafe to use a firearm. And using an unloaded firearm for that wouldn't allow the shot to be scored.
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Why would I go out and get those instead of using the real guns to teach someone how to safely operate firearms??
I'm not really seeing anyone suggesting that it's NECESSARY to use airsoft for training. If you want to keep doing it how you've always done it, I don't think anyone is going to have any heartburn with that at all.

The OP made the claim that people shouldn't train with airsoft, and people are commenting that there's really no reason not to (as long as one understands the limitations of the system)--nobody is trying to make the case that you HAVE to train with them to do it right.
Quote:
He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.
Although it might seem to be a YT view gambit, the links are all to different channels. It appears that the OP genuinely feels like this is a truth he has stumbled onto and he wants to make sure everyone else knows about it too.
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This isnt the only forum where this post has surfaced.
Yup.
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Old October 21, 2020, 11:31 AM   #56
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“Reductio ad absurdum” - this is a way of evaluating the truth of a position by “reducing it to the absurd”. Let’s try!
1. Airsoft guns are of absolutely no benefit to training because it’s not “real”
Okay, if you believe that then how about

2. Shooting any firearm or power level of ammunition that isn’t what you use is of absolutely no benefit because it’s not “real”
Well, If I agree with No.1 then I guess I agree with No. 2.

3. Shooting in well lit areas at stationary targets made of paper or steel is of no benefit because the conditions are not real and the targets will never shoot back at you! It’s not real! You must also account for environment, uncertainty, fear- the overpowering effect of Adrenalin!
Well, we know that combat veterans are much more effective in battle... and it’s true, steel plates don’t move or shoot back. They are not real, so... I agree.

4. “The only effective training is real world experience!”. This reminds me of “the return of the Pink Panther- Cato fight” (look it up on YouTube yourself for a laugh)... we should have our servants attacking us at random with real weapons to train.

Yes, the best training is years of experience coupled with seminars, reading, learning and practice drills. Believing that anything less than ultimate reality is useless leads us to ridiculous conclusions. Okay- here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghBY8dakqJ4

One important element of training is fun or imparts a sense of achievement.
I bet those airsoft guns can be a hoot!

Another element of training is that it NOT develop bad habits. Ingraining a habit from scratch is much easier than overcoming a bad habit. I will also wager that many of the airsoft crowd have developed skills that are effective or not critical for airsoft but are not appropriate for the 1911 or a proper 10mm.

What are the odds that you’ll be in a gunfight? A lot less than the odds that you’ll be in a steel plate competition. So which one is “real”?
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Old October 21, 2020, 12:08 PM   #57
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Thanks for the replies, and, of course I thought I was being clear and concise, (don't we all, always??)
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Old October 21, 2020, 08:12 PM   #58
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OP sounded to be quite the expert!
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Old October 22, 2020, 01:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426 View Post
The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.
When you Google videos(posted among the links) of a person with an Airsoft Glock or Air guns shooting better groups than most folk can on range with a AR-15(or PCC): Them you have people saying "I'm better throwing this gun towards" or barely connecting most hits at 25 yard with an actual pistol- Haven't you found anything suspicious of an platform with much less point of contact being very easy to shoot?

If actual powder-burning autoloading pistols can be so easily used to plink 50 yard targets- Then why most person can barely connect their shots at 30 yards with an pistol without stock and foregrip with limp-wristing recoil and 6lb trigger pull? Why Mr Gun Jesus was shooting worse groups with an M1 Carbine than folks with Air guns linked let alone a mouse gun?

Here are quotes from people who wasted their time practicing with Airsoft:

I need help and this is probably the best place to ask for it.



It's on the subject of shooting pistols. Now rifles I have down to an art, and with airsoft or HW45 air pistols, I'm fine. But put a real pistol in my hands and I struggle to hit a man sized target at 25m. I line up the sights correctly, keep the weapon in a decent hold, to the point where people have commented that when I fire, the weapon barely moved (understandable given my size) and the weapon always seems to return to the aim point, all of which would indicate a good shot from a rifle, yet when I go down to the target, it is annoyingly holeless! All the deviations from aimpoint tend to be completely random, at least once the unzeroed nature of the weapon is take into account. It's insane that I'm a better shot and can hit further targets with an airsoft GBB than a real pistol despite them both being the same design, and having lighter crispier triggers than my NBB BB and Crosman 1277!



I'm at the limits of mine. I can only assume its something about how I hold it that's doing it.


Basically I can take out a bullseye from 25 yards with my airsoft pistol. But once I go to the range and shoot my glock 43 I have a 5-8 inch grouping from 12 yards. Am I doing something wrong? I’m also shooting left

Repeated shots without actual recoil are of no benefit, and is in fact detrimental to reinforcing the physical control necessary to maintain accuracy in a realistic string of fire.

My conclusion is that any manipulation or physical skill which is easier to perform with an Airsoft or Air gun has ZERO training value. Whether it’s the trigger pull, the slide resistance, or the amount of recoil- "But Air guns is much more convenient and I can practice drills most ranges don't allow!" If you don't have access to ammo or range available them don't practice with Airsoft. Unless you’re extremely cognizant and dedicated in your practice the non-firearm will in fact induce bad habits that you will need to spend time and effort correcting on the firing line. They aren’t real and so I don’t treat them like they’re real — and that ruins the training value and precious time.
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Old October 22, 2020, 03:12 PM   #60
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When you Google videos(posted among the links) of a person with an Airsoft Glock or Air guns shooting better groups than most folk can on range with a AR-15(or PCC): Them you have people saying "I'm better throwing this gun towards" or barely connecting most hits at 25 yard with an actual pistol- Haven't you found anything suspicious of an platform with much less point of contact being very easy to shoot?
Did you actually watch those videos? You can see the pellets from the Glock going downrange sometimes and they're going all over the place, they aren't good groups at all, in fact, what I saw was that he was missing the entire target most of the time.

The second video didn't show any groups shot at all nor did it state at what distance he was shooting the reactive targets.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but if you're going to post videos to prove that people shoot much better groups with Airsoft of Airguns, you need to actually find videos that show people shooting groups with airsoft and Airguns, not just random videos of people shooting airguns and Airsoft. That's just a waste of everyone's time.

I did watch the one about the Swiss Arms CO2 pistol and it didn't seem to be shooting great groups. The one group he showed was about 6" at 11 yards or so. That's ok shooting, but it's possible to shoot much better groups than that with a firearm (or a more accurate air pistol) at those distances. Looks like he got maybe 10 hits on the 70yard target out of 3 magazines (54 shots). Again, not bad, but not amazing--certainly not evidence that people shoot way better with airguns than they do with firearms. I took a pistol class some years ago and everyone made hits on a bowling pin at 50 yards with centerfire pistols--two people actually hit it on the first shot.

As far as why some people might shoot airguns and Airsoft better than firearms.

My take is that people tend to have less issue with flinch when they shoot Airsoft/airguns but some people do flinch when shooting firearms.

Having shot a ton of ammo through a variety of airguns and firearms, I can tell you that the accuracy is pretty similar.

However, if a person has developed a flinch, or has trouble with flinching, they will tend to shoot firearms much more poorly than they will something like Airsoft of an airgun which has very little recoil and discharge noise and creates no flash/blast.

That doesn't mean that Airsoft has no training value, but it does mean that a person using Airsoft/airguns to train needs to understand the limitations of the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some person who claims to shoot airsoft way better than firearms
Basically I can take out a bullseye from 25 yards with my airsoft pistol.
I think that perhaps some hyperbole is present in this statement. You can watch Olympic airgun shooting--people using airguns that cost thousands of dollars, competing at world-class levels to get a feel for how well these amazing shooters can actually shoot airguns that are far more accurate than any airsoft. Then realize that all Olympic airgun competition is shot at 10m (33 feet).

I think it would be entertaining to watch someone who could really "take out a bullseye at 25 yards with an Airsoft" with any level of consistency but until I see it, I'm going to remain a bit skeptical.
Quote:
If actual powder-burning autoloading pistols can be so easily used to plink 50 yard targets- Then why most person can barely connect their shots at 30 yards with an pistol without stock and foregrip with limp-wristing recoil and 6lb trigger pull? Why Mr Gun Jesus was shooting worse groups with an M1 Carbine than folks with Air guns linked let alone a mouse gun?
This is sort of a hodge-podge of "evidence". You've got different people shooting different guns at different ranges and for different purposes.

The airgun folks are shooting primarily for accuracy while the firearm videos are focusing on speed as a major concern. I don't care who is shooting, if accuracy (group size or hitting a small target) is their main concern, they will shoot better groups than when they are trying for speed in a timed competition.

You need to find some apples-to-apples comparisons, preferably by the same people, done at the same kinds of ranges and with the same goals in mind.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:11 PM   #61
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Proper safety check would have prevented a woman from being killed by the revolver that was supposed to use....blanks? Simunitions? (there wouldn't be a barrel swapped in however) But a dedicated training gun would take that problem out of the equation, be it a blue gun, laser trainer, simunitions, airsoft, FX rounds, whichever.

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Old October 22, 2020, 09:43 PM   #62
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@ LastStar75,

I’m glad you came back to respond. This is a public forum and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. It seems like most of the other members do not agree with you and have stated their reasons why.

Way before I was old enough to own a real gun, I shot BB/pellet guns. Some of those had really crappy triggers, but it built the basics of marksmanship, namely trigger control and sight picture. Those obviously did not recoil. The first time I fired a real gun, there was some flinching, but I didn’t do bad. I have been shooting for about 25 years already and have fired quite a few rounds from quite a few different guns. I feel air soft works for me as a supplement to live fire. It’s much better than not practicing due to price/availability of ammo. As I mentioned in my first response, the bullet has usually left the barrel by the time you feel the recoil.

You mention that not everyone who picks up a real gun after shooting air soft is a great marksman. If starting with a hard recoiling caliber, the noise and recoil are going to be teal factos to contend with. They are typically better than someone with absolutely no experience.
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