Can I shoot 9x21 IMI 123 gr with my Springfield Hellcat?

[moonlight]

Hello,
I was gifted a box of Fiocchi 9 x 21 IMI 123 grs FMJ. I own a Springfield Hellcat 9mm. I am very unfamiliar with 9x21 and am not sure if it will fit my Hellcat. Any advice or explanation? Thanks in advance.
-A

[mikejonestkd]

Your springfield Hellcat is chambered for 9mm x 19. It it not designed for 9mm x 21.Do not attempt to chamber the IMI ammo in your springfield.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by moonlight

I am very unfamiliar with 9x21 and am not sure if it will fit my Hellcat.

Thankfully, it won't fit.

There's a reason why the "caliber" (i.e. cartridge designation) is marked on the barrel or barrel hood of every firearm and on the box and headstamp of every cartridge. If thet don't match, do try to mix them unless you really know what you're doing.

[rc]

while not recommended it "may" work in a 38 super which is 9x23 in the same way that some people get away shooting 9x19 luger in a 38 super but the longer case will not fully chamber in you 9x19 Luger pistol and may stick in the chamber of a 38 super if the extractor slips. The 9x21 is a round developed to get around some European gun laws. In places like Italy civilians could not own guns in military calibers. Best use of that box of ammo is for trading. Somebody out there has a 9x21 barrel. A hand loader could break down the round and use the bullets in other cases.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by rc

while not recommended it "may" work in a 38 super which is 9x23 ...

No, .38 Super is NOT 9x23. The case length is the same for both, at .900" -.010. However, the .38 Super is a constant diameter (cylindrical) case of .384" diameter, whereas 9x23 is a tapered case, tapering from .3911" just forward of the extractor groove down to .381 at the case mouth.

9x23 may chamber in a very sloppy .38 Super chamber -- but it shouldn't.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

No, .38 Super is NOT 9x23. The case length is the same for both, at .900" -.010. However, the .38 Super is a constant diameter (cylindrical) case of .384" diameter, whereas 9x23 is a tapered case, tapering from .3911" just forward of the extractor groove down to .381 at the case mouth.

9x23 may chamber in a very sloppy .38 Super chamber -- but it shouldn't.

My goodness.

What's important is the 38 Super chamber dimensions, not the 38 Super cartridge dimensions.

The 38 Super chamber ahead of the breach face is .3887 + .004. Thus it can be as large as .3927, which will easily fit a 9X23 cartridge.

9X23 ammo fits in most of my 38 Super barrels, except one where it won't (Clark). 9X23 fits in my Kart 38 Super barrels, and they are hardly sloppy.

Also, the 9X23's .3911 is a maximum dimension and is -.007 which means they can be as small as .3841. Few, if any, 9X23 measure the maximum size. The one's in front of me (Winchester Silvertips) measure .388 at the head.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 74A95

What's important is the 38 Super chamber dimensions, not the 38 Super cartridge dimensions.

The 38 Super chamber ahead of the breach face is .3887 + .004. Thus it can be as large as .3927, which will easily fit a 9X23 cartridge.

9X23 ammo fits in most of my 38 Super barrels, except one where it won't (Clark). 9X23 fits in my Kart 38 Super barrels, and they are hardly sloppy.

In other words, it will fit ... unless it doesn't.

Physical dimensions aside, the 9x23 is a 55,000 psi cartridge, and .38 Super is 36,500 psi. It's really not a good idea to shoot 9x23 through a .38 Super pistol, but everyone gets to make their own decisions.

However, we're getting off-topic. The question was shooting 9x21 in a "9mm" (which I assume means 9x19/9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum) pistol, and the answer to that is still "No." My comment was to refute the statement that 9x23 is the same as .38 Super. Whether or not it may fit some .38 Super chambers, it definitely is not the same cartridge.

[Jim Watson]

There are a number of 9x23 cartridges besides the 9x23 Winchester.
.38 Super is 9x23 SR in European nomenclature.
Lots of Spanish 9x23 Largo out there.
Which is or is derived from the 9x23 Bergman Bayard.
The 9x23 Steyr is a rimless straight case unlike any of the others.

Starline makes several cases in the 9x23 family.
.38 Super Comp, .38 Super rimless.
.38 TJ, .38 Super rimless with huge extractor groove.
9mm Super Comp, same outside dimensions as 9x23 Win but different volume, different brass, different loads.

But you still can't shoot 9x21 or 9x23 in a Hellcat 9x19.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

In other words, it will fit ... unless it doesn't.

Physical dimensions aside, the 9x23 is a 55,000 psi cartridge, and .38 Super is 36,500 psi. It's really not a good idea to shoot 9x23 through a .38 Super pistol, but everyone gets to make their own decisions.

However, we're getting off-topic. The question was shooting 9x23 in a "9mm" (which I assume means 9x19/9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum) pistol, and the answer to that is still "No." My comment was to refute the statement that 9x23 is the same as .38 Super. Whether or not it may fit some .38 Super chambers, it definitely is not the same cartridge.

You're right, they're not the same cartridge. One's straight walled and one's tapered and they have different pressure limits.

However, the same guns shoot both rounds, with exceptions perhaps of some less sturdy designs chambered in 38 Super. But 1911s, for example, shoot both calibers. The only difference is their chamber dimensions. If people want a 'better' fit for the 9X23 the 38 Super chamber can be reamed.

People who load 38 Super can achieve the same ballistics as 9X23 by selecting the right gunpowder.

[Aguila Blanca]

Let's get back to the question asked in the opening post.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Let's get back to the question asked in the opening post.

The answer to that question is: No, a 9X21 can't be fired in a 9mm chamber because the 9X21 won't go in far enough. The 9X21 case is 2mm longer than a 9mm (aka 9X19) so it won't fit.

Question answered.

Might as well lock the thread because there is only one answer.

[rc]

Case length is basically the same for a 38 super and 9x23. You can load them with the same dies and most of the time it will work. Many 38 super 1911s will shoot either interchangeably along with 9mm Steyr and 9mm Bergman Beyard and 9mm Largo. The 9x23 is a thicker tapered case with a larger base while 38 super is a straight case but sloppy chamber dimensions of 38 super pistols may allow 9x23 to chamber at the rear and the rounds will head space correctly since the bullets are the same diameter. Having a buffer and/or heavy spring may be needed because they are hotter than typical 38 super. My buddies 9x23 reloads will fit and fire through my ramped 4 inch 38 super Kimber HD and his loads were running about like my hot 38 super reloads over the chronograph. I tried 9x19 in the gun too which I don't recommend but some guys get away with running 40 cal in a 10mm so I experimented to see what would happen in a pinch and many round functioned fine but some rounds got stuck in the barrel that slipped the extractor. The extractor controls head space when using the incorrect length cartridges in a semi auto handgun which is why some people can run 40 cal through a glock 10mm. Again not recommeded but in a pinch it may be better than not having ammo at all. While the 9x21 rounds will likely have malfunctions in a longer 38 super chamber just like 9x19 it can work in a pinch through some 38 supers, it is one possible way to dispose of that box of ammo. While there may be a problem with head space shooting 9x21 out of a 38 super, there is no head space issues trying to shoot a 9x23 out of a 38 super if the rear of the chamber is loose enough for the round to slip in. The only concern is having a supported chamber and proper spring to use the higher pressured round.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by rc

While the 9x21 rounds will likely have malfunctions in a longer 38 super chamber just like 9x19 it can work in a pinch through some 38 supers, it is one possible way to dispose of that box of ammo.

But the OP (Moonlight) asked about shooting 9x21 in a 9mm (9x19) Springfield Hellcat. That simply can't work at all, so please stop muddying the issue.

Yes, sometimes it is possible to fire something other than the round a firearm was designed for, but it is something that should ONLY be undertaken by shooters who know exactly what they are doing. The standard, safe advice is always to only shoot ammunition of the exact type that is marked on the barrel or chamber hood.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

But the OP (Moonlight) asked about shooting 9x21 in a 9mm (9x19) Springfield Hellcat. That simply can't work at all, so please stop muddying the issue.

All the more reason to lock the thread. Unless you think there is another answer, in which case let us know what it is.

[T. O'Heir]

"...if it will fit my Hellcat..." No. Case is too long.
"...gifted a box of..." That's a reason to buy another pistol. Mind you, I'd find a reliable source of ammo first.
.38 Super and 9x23 have different rim diameters. .406" vs .394". The 9 x 21's is .392".
The really serious part is the 55,000 PSI vs the 36,500 PSI for the Super +P.

[JohnKSa]

9x21 is a ballistic twin of the 9x19 Luger. It is, in fact, designed to be fired in 9x19 guns with only a barrel change. The only difference in the barrel is a chamber cut slightly deeper to accommodate the longer case.

Pressure and performance are identical to the 9x19 Luger/Parabellum. The bullet is seated deeper into the longer case so that the round's overall length is, for practical purposes, the same as the 9x19.

It was developed for use in countries that prohibit the use of military ammunition--specifically 9x19mm. Putting a 9x21 barrel in a 9x19 pistol allows the use of 9x21 ammunition, thus avoiding the legality issue.

Any gun that will handle 9x19 Luger safely will also handle 9x21 safely with only a barrel change.

[rc]

Maybe the most obvious solution is to TRADE harder to find 9x21 for the easy to find 9x19 ammo. Just got to find the right guy and then all will be right in the world.