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Old June 5, 2024, 12:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
Why is the loading gate on a single action a problem for .40 rounds?



You would not need a moon clip, just put them in and punch them out like all cartridges.



Right?
I suppose it would work like that if the cylinder was cut for the depth of 40 Smith & Wesson. Is there an alternative way to control case head position on a rimless cartridge in a gun that does not have an extractor claw?

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Old June 5, 2024, 12:58 PM   #27
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Originally posted by The Verminator
Why is the loading gate on a single action a problem for .40 rounds?

You would not need a moon clip, just put them in and punch them out like all cartridges.

Right?
Typical "revolver" cartridges like .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 LC, etc. utilize their rim not only for extraction (at least in a top-break or swing-out cylinder) but also for headspacing. This is why it's perfectly safe to shoot shorter cartridges like .38 Special or .44 Special in guns chambered for longer ones like .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum: they all headspace on the rim.

Because 10mm and most other "semi-auto" cartridges are "rimless" in that their rim is the same diameter as the case body, they need to headspace on the case mouth instead. Because the .40 S&W is shorter than 10mm, if simply slipped into the chamber unsupported it will go too deeply into the chamber before it's case mouth abuts against the "step" milled into the chamber for headspacing. This is why, though some people do it anyway, shooting .40 S&W through a 10mm semi-auto isn't a recommended practice as you're relying solely on the tension of the extractor for headspacing, something the extractor was not designed to do. With a revolver that uses moon clips, you can usually get away with shooting .40 S&W because the moon clip supports the cartridge enough to act the same as the rim on a "revolver" cartridge would. However, with a gate-loading revolver, there is no moon clip or extractor to hold the cartridge back against the recoil shield and thus the .40 S&W cannot headspace properly in a 10mm chamber.
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Old June 5, 2024, 02:09 PM   #28
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“While .40 S&W ammunition can be used in some 10mm revolvers, this isn't universally true. While not particularly common, there have been 10mm single-action revolvers made and, because they load and unload through a loading gate, such guns cannot use moon clips and therefore cannot use .40 S&W ammunition. Also, Ruger specifically states in the owners manuals for both the GP100 and Super Redhawk that they "will function, and has been tested, with 40 S&W caliber ammunition, but may misfire (fail to fire) with some commerical ammunition. For this reason, Ruger does not recommend the use of 40 S&W ammunition in this revolver." I suspect that this is because there's enough flex in the moon clip to allow certain ammunition with harder primers to fail to fire. The versatility of using .40 S&W seems greatly diminished if you have to cherry pick certain brands of ammunition that will be reliable, or can't use it at all.”

Could this have something to do with the difference in primer size between 10 and 40?
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Old June 5, 2024, 02:32 PM   #29
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primer size is not the issue, the issue is "keeping the cartridge from sliding too far into the chamber" aka "head space"
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Old June 5, 2024, 03:37 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Pumpkin
Could this have something to do with the difference in primer size between 10 and 40?
I don't really see how it could as the same or similar models are made in .357 Magnum which uses a small pistol primer like .40 S&W and I've even come across some 10mm brass with small pistol primers.

My best guess is that the moon clips have a little bit of flex to them and, if you're shooting .40 S&W which doesn't have it's case mouth supported by the chamber like 10mm would, the cartridge can move forward just enough when struck by the firing pin that the primer isn't ignited. This probably isn't a common problem with other moon clip revolvers because either there is no commonly available shorter cartridge to be used as a sub load, as would be the case with 9mm and .45 ACP, or they're using traditional rimmed cartridges like .38 Special or .357 Magnum which rely on their rims abutting against the outer edge of the cylinder for headspacing anyway.
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Old June 5, 2024, 03:49 PM   #31
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Typical "revolver" cartridges like .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 LC, etc. utilize their rim not only for extraction (at least in a top-break or swing-out cylinder) but also for headspacing. This is why it's perfectly safe to shoot shorter cartridges like .38 Special or .44 Special in guns chambered for longer ones like .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum: they all headspace on the rim.

Because 10mm and most other "semi-auto" cartridges are "rimless" in that their rim is the same diameter as the case body, they need to headspace on the case mouth instead. Because the .40 S&W is shorter than 10mm, if simply slipped into the chamber unsupported it will go too deeply into the chamber before it's case mouth abuts against the "step" milled into the chamber for headspacing. This is why, though some people do it anyway, shooting .40 S&W through a 10mm semi-auto isn't a recommended practice as you're relying solely on the tension of the extractor for headspacing, something the extractor was not designed to do. With a revolver that uses moon clips, you can usually get away with shooting .40 S&W because the moon clip supports the cartridge enough to act the same as the rim on a "revolver" cartridge would. However, with a gate-loading revolver, there is no moon clip or extractor to hold the cartridge back against the recoil shield and thus the .40 S&W cannot headspace properly in a 10mm chamber.
Ok, that makes sense.

Thanks for the help.

I can see how the .40 would then slide in too far in the single action.
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Old June 5, 2024, 04:38 PM   #32
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So you don’t have to chase the brass.
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Old June 5, 2024, 04:41 PM   #33
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primer size is not the issue, the issue is "keeping the cartridge from sliding too far into the chamber" aka "head space”

I know the head space is wrong but what about all the Colt 1917 45 ACP revolvers.
I thought they would only function properly with 45 ACP and half moon clips?
Or 45 Auto Rim.

Are the 10mm moon clips appreciably thinner than the 45?
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Old June 5, 2024, 04:43 PM   #34
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can't use a moon clip on SA with loading gate revolver
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Old June 5, 2024, 04:54 PM   #35
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OK, you're right, 10mm is a terrible option because the cheapest options are all priced the same...

I checked the 3 different vendors I buy from and they had 6, 7, and 8 of the 17 different Winchester 38 special options you mention as available.

Everyone I know who shoots a lot buys online. The days of showing up at the range or on the way to the range and expecting to buy ammo are kind of over unless you get lucky or are willing to pay through nose either way.

Good grief. Like I said before - it's not that 10mm is the best option, but it is pretty much on par with the other common calibers and depending on your situation it might be a logical choice.
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Old June 5, 2024, 05:44 PM   #36
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It's not something I'd be interested in. A 10mm pistol is the equivalent of a comparably sized 357 mag. A 4.5" Glock 20 is about the same overall length as a 3" K or L frame 357 mag.

Power levels are about the same with similar bullet weights. I can shoot 155's in my 10mm and do about anything I can do with 158's from a 357 mag revolver. Ditto that with 180 or 200 gr bullets. There are 220 gr 10mm loads, but I'm not sure they are a better option than the 200 gr loads.

There are some guys who simply prefer revolvers but personally I'd stick with a 357 mag revolver instead of a 10mm revolver. But everyone is different and that's why they make them.
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Old June 5, 2024, 07:22 PM   #37
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I'd be willing to bet that "flex" in a moon clip allowing for less than reliable ignition (as in .40S&W in a 10mm chamber) would only be an issue using plastic/polymer clips.

Traditionally, from the earliest days of half moon clips in the 1917 .45ACP revolvers, the clips were steel. Thin, yes, but steel. Steel that doesn't flex like plastic/polymers can.

Downside of steel is, of course, rust, and the fact that once bent, they stay bent until straightened. Plastics /polymers don't rust and have a degree of flex and return to true steel doesn't have.

SA revolvers firing rimless rounds get away with it by using a separate cylinder for them. The SA's allow the case to headspace on the case mouth, and the poke them out one at a time ejection doesn't care about rimmed or rimless.
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Old June 5, 2024, 08:35 PM   #38
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Originally posted by 44 AMP
I'd be willing to bet that "flex" in a moon clip allowing for less than reliable ignition (as in .40S&W in a 10mm chamber) would only be an issue using plastic/polymer clips.

Traditionally, from the earliest days of half moon clips in the 1917 .45ACP revolvers, the clips were steel. Thin, yes, but steel. Steel that doesn't flex like plastic/polymers can.

Downside of steel is, of course, rust, and the fact that once bent, they stay bent until straightened. Plastics /polymers don't rust and have a degree of flex and return to true steel doesn't have.
I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue with steel moon clips either, but apparently it's enough of an issue for Ruger to mention it in their owner's manual and I can't think of any other reason why you would get misfires with .40 S&W in moon clips.

I seem to recall that while the S&W 1917 revolvers always had the "step" machined into the chambers, some of the early Colt 1917's had their cylinders bored straight through thus making moon clips mandatory for both headspacing and extraction, thus making the issue with shooting .40's in a Ruger revolver all the more curious.

The only explanation I can come up with is that every picture of 10mm moon clips I've seen has a groove cut in between where the cartridges go while .45 ACP moon clips generally lack this groove. You can see what I'm referring to in the pictures on Ruger's website.

https://shopruger.com/Super-Redhawk-...uctinfo/90515/

Perhaps this groove allows more flex in the moon clip than more traditional ones which lack this feature? Like I said it's a curious situation especially since they don't mention similar issues with the Redhawk that can fire both .45 Long Colt and, with moon clips, .45 ACP which also appears to use "grooved" moon clips. Perhaps, because the cylinder is machined differently to allow .45 LC to be used without clips, the case is better supported and thus prevents the issue? I really don't know, as I said it's a very curious situation.
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Old June 8, 2024, 04:44 PM   #39
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I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue with steel moon clips either, but apparently it's enough of an issue for Ruger to mention it in their owner's manual and I can't think of any other reason why you would get misfires with .40 S&W in moon clips.
The quote from the Ruger manuals says "has been tested and works", so, I'm thinking that with Ruger clips, (steel) there likely won't be an issue. However, the quote also says they don't recommend using .40 S&W because some ammo might not work well. TO me, that says Ruger CYA as they will not endorse ammo they haven't tested, and proved reliable. Also, Ruger has no way of knowing if you are using their clips or not.

Quote:
I seem to recall that while the S&W 1917 revolvers always had the "step" machined into the chambers, some of the early Colt 1917's had their cylinders bored straight through thus making moon clips mandatory for both headspacing and extraction, thus making the issue with shooting .40's in a Ruger revolver all the more curious.
The very first batch of Colt 1917 revolvers had cylinders bored straight through, and so lacked the headspacing ledge that S&W put in their guns. So, the first Colts needed clips in order to work at all. S&W guns only needed clips for simultaneous ejection.

Every batch of Colt 1917s after the first one had the headspace ledge in the cylinder like the S&Ws did. After WWI, those first batch Colts were reworked and the cylinders were replaced with ones which had the headspace ledge.

IF you can find a Colt 1917 that still has a bored straight through cylinder, it is a real rarity, as it is a gun that somehow escaped the rebuild process.

The .45AR came out in the 1920s, from Peters, originally, so civilian owners could use 1917 revolvers without needing clips.

Not every (more modern) .45 acp revolvers can use .45 Auto Rim cases. Some can, some cannot.
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Old June 8, 2024, 04:56 PM   #40
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I don't get it. Have loaded 41 Magnum for over 40 years. Superior performance and a rimmed revolver cartridge.
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Old June 9, 2024, 01:25 AM   #41
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Like nearly all other "semi auto rounds in a revolver" the intended market is people who already own a pistol in that caliber, letting them use it in a revolver, with a revolver's advantages.

Doesn't always work that way, everyone's different, but that the general idea behind it. I bought a Ruger .45 Convertable, back in 83. Didn't know anything much about the .45 Colt round, but I did have a .45 auto, and felt the SA revolver combo would let me plink with my ACP ammo, and not have to hunt for my reloadable (and therefore valuable) brass in the weeds.

I made one SMALL "mistake", I picked up the gun from the shop, and on the way home realized that I didn't have any .45 Colt ammo, so a stopped at a store and bought a box. Winchester, 255gr the standard stuff they've been loading forever.

My "mistake" was firing that ammo first, it was GREAT! Roar, blast and the barrel pointing to the sky!! I loved it!!

By comparison, when I shot the ACP ammo, it seems wimpy and weak, and I was firmly hooked on the .45 Colt for that gun. In the 40+ years since then, I think I've shot 300 rnds of ACP through that gun, but several thousands of .45 Colt.

I like the idea of the convertable SA revolver, swap cylinders and you're good to go.

Never really saw the point to a dedicated semi auto round DA revolver, other than something to shoot the ammo you have for your semi without having to hunt for the empties.

I'm sure a 10mm in a revolver will do fine for many things, but it does have slightly lower performance on lighter game because it doesn't use an SWC bullet.
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Old June 9, 2024, 01:55 AM   #42
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Why is the loading gate on a single action a problem for .40 rounds?
It’s not.

But pistol cartridges in a single-action revolver headspace on the crimp, like a Blackhawk’s 9mm cylinder; .40 S&W would drop too far into the chamber in a 10mm revolver.

The same is true for a double-action Smith 610 – it will function with 10mm cartridges absent a moon clip; but .40 S&W will function only with a moon clip.
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Old June 10, 2024, 12:45 AM   #43
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->Just Because<- I had an early 5" 610, a 38-40/10mm Blackhawk and 4" and 5" Ruger 10mm GP100s. Can't say the 10 is better than someone else's choice, but I've always liked the 10mm cartridge. I initially shot the old Norma load in a Bren Ten, and began loading for the 10 as soon as I could get dies. Much as I like the 10, I don't think the 10 does anything more in a revolver than might be accomplished with a .357..YMMV
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Old June 10, 2024, 07:21 PM   #44
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Why? Because 10 is more than 9. If 9mm is great, 10mm must be better!
10mm Magnum mo’ better.

https://sixguns.com/taffin-tests-the-10mm-magnum/
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Old June 10, 2024, 08:38 PM   #45
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But pistol cartridges in a single-action revolver headspace on the crimp,...
'case mouth' I think is the better term. The crimp here is just a taper crimp, not a rounded crimp like on a 'normal' revolver cartridge .
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Old June 11, 2024, 01:42 AM   #46
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The crimp here is just a taper crimp, not a rounded crimp like on a 'normal' revolver cartridge.
There are actually a few "semi-auto" cartridges that can be, and commonly are, roll crimped like "revolver" cartridges. Probably the two most common would be .25 ACP and .32 ACP as these are "semi-rimmed" cartridges that, like "revolver" cartridges rely on their rims for headspacing (though their rims are smaller in diameter as compared to their case bodies than true rimmed cartridges). However, most "semi-auto" cartridges have to be taper crimped, or not crimped at all, because a squared-off case mouth is necessary for proper headspacing. An oddity arising from a "semi-rimmed" cartridge is that .32 ACP can actually be fired in a revolver chambered for .32 H&R Magnum or .327 Federal Magnum (it's probably possible to do so in one chambered for .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long as well, but that would be potentially dangerous as .32 ACP operates at higher pressure that those cartridges). The small semi-rim of the .32 ACP will prevent it from going too far into the chamber though, due to it's thinner rim, misfires are more likely and, due to the smaller diameter of its rim, it's more likely to "jump" the extractor when the shooter ejects the cases.

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Old June 11, 2024, 06:06 AM   #47
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I don’t have a 10mm six gun but I do have a 625 JM.
I have long been a fan of the 45 AR and have a good quantity of brass but I will say 45ACP is a good option especially with cheaper ammo for fun shooting and I’m being too lazy to reload.
I wouldn’t mind a 5” 10mm as a mate for the 45.
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Old June 12, 2024, 04:44 PM   #48
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Buying ammo online really only makes sense if you're buying in large quantities or looking for something that's difficult to find in a brick-and-mortar store. If you're just buying one or two boxes of commonly-available ammunition, the savings from buying online are quickly eaten up by shipping costs. A lot of people don't buy ammo in bulk but rather just buy a box or two when they want to go to the range, those people I think are much more likely to simply go to a brick-and-mortar store than buy online, pay the shipping costs, and wait for their ammo to be delivered.
Possibly, but most of the local retailers mark up their non 9mm ammo so much that it's cheaper to biy one box of ammo AND pay the shipping. The last box of .32 ACP I saw at a store was $60 for 50 rds of Winchester FMJ.

For 10mm I think I paid around 25 and tax a few months ago, but if I feel the need in the future to buy more than one box it will be online and I will find a place that doesn't hit me with tax.
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Old June 12, 2024, 04:58 PM   #49
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I think rc in post 4 nailed the reason why 10mm revolvers are being mande and IMO will continue to be for some time and it's that the traditional revolver calibers are waning in popularity with modern and future shooters because the revolver has lost popularity to autos. This in turn drives demand for auto calibers like 9, 40, 45, and 10mm to be produced in higher quantities and the supply improves to lower costs while less is produced for the .38 and .357, yet the same number of existing firearms for those calibers remains. This creates a shortage and for years after Covid we saw plenty of auto calibers (mostly 9) being made while the revolver calibers just... stopped.

It has gotten better lately, but it downright sucked for years and if I wasn't a reloader I wouldn't ever dare consider a revolver that couldn't shoot a rimless caliber. In fact every revolver I've bought this year has been a 9mm to scratch the itch.

10mm benefits from .40, there's still significant demand for that ammo by LE and civilians, thus it gets produced and because all it takes to change lines making the ammo over to 10mm is raising the presses the fractions of an inch and upping the powder charge, it takes no time to changeover and that savings is reflected in 10mm costing so much less than .357 does. Given the major increase in power that 10mm has compared to .38 it's kind of a waste to spend the same amount of dough on something weaker and when that same revolver could possibly shoot .40 which costs even less (it's probably the second cheapest centerfire to 9mm, maybe .380 is less but lol .380, really?) The benefits of a 10mm revolver really come thru for a majority of people, especially the average casual gun owner.

That is to say if they want to buy a revolver bigger than a 22.

Now, the J frame snub isn't going to die and .40/10 is too big for that, so there will always be some demand, but now that .32 is making a comeback specifically because of the J frame sized snubs, it's questionable if that once solid backbone of the .38 will start to crumble.

I'm not saying that the .38 and .357 are done, but there are several factors occurring simultaneously that are going to affect the revolver market in the future because the consumer who buys them today is different than those of the past. They have different needs and above all price is usually the most critical factor. If it's cheaper for someone to shoot a 10mm revolver than it is a .357 and .40 is cheaper than .38, they will chose that over the traditional option.
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Old June 12, 2024, 05:55 PM   #50
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If what your saying is true we are to be getting a buttload of 9mm revolvers.
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