38 spc,snake shot ?

[Grant 14]

I have an old 38 spc that will not chamber the modern plastic cap/container type snake shot. I used to have a supply of 38 snake shot that was flush with the end of the case, but when they ran out, I could only find the longer type which will not chamber. I tried reloading a few with overshot wads, but could not find data. I dont like shooting something that I have guessed at. Are there any commercial 38 snake shot cartridges available that are short? One box would last me a long long time. Any advice??? Thanks, Grant.

[Marco Califo]

It is possible to make 45 ACP snake shot shells by cutting of 308 brass (longer than 45 length). Not worth the effort in my opinion, but I knew someone who did it.
For snakes, all you need is a shovel, walking stick, or snake tongs. Yes, that is a real thing, and mine cost $30.
Firearms for snakes is not a good idea in my opinion.
Google for it and watch the videos.

[hounddawg]

I agree with Marco with effort vs reward on the home made stuff. A hefty walking stick is the best snake medicine ever invented. Our club is located in the middle of a swamp. Copperheads, moccasins, as well as the occasional rattler and gator visit the target lines regularly

[rodfac]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Deleted in light of pressure concerns. Best Regards, Rod

[hounddawg]

that's some good info to know, thanks Rod

[big al hunter]

I have had similar results to rodfac. But I use a little different approach. I use card stock for wads. I take a reject case and sharpen it with a deburring tool. Then I put the card stock on a piece of wood and tap the case head with a hammer. I drilled out the primer hole to allow for a rod that pushes the wads out. I load mine in 44 mag cases with 7 1/2 shot. I weighed the shot that completely filled the case and looked up shotshell load data and lead bullet data to find a powder charge. You are not loading for max pressure. You want a gentle load to keep good patterns.

[Grant 14]

Since when I am hunting or working around my property, I cant carry a big stick, the little 2 barrel derringer with snake shot is my solution. I think I have figured out what I am going to do. Last night I pulled the plastic shot container out of a CCI 38 spc shotshell and cut about an 1/8 inch off of the plastic. It now hold a little less shot but fits the chamber. I expected to see powder in the case, but there is only a small aluminum band that hold some type of charge. The primer looks like a normal small pistol primer from the outside, but inside it looks like a regular shotgun type of primer. I will try a few out of my heavy frame 38 before I try them in my derringer , but I dont expect any issue. Can anyone see any danger that I am unaware of? Thanks Grant.

[FITASC]

How are those Speer capsules not fitting? Are you not seating them deep enough? I have used those things for decades and seat them to the same depth as my 158LSWC bullets (I use the same seating die with no adjustments) - they work, (but I will say the patterns suck)

[big al hunter]

You are reducing weight of the projectile and not changing seating depth of the capsule, so I don't see any issues. If you get the same pattern I was with the plastic capsules, it has a hole in the middle because the capsule grips the rifling and spins. I don't see the same pattern with shot loaded directly in the cartridge case with card stock wads.

[44 AMP]

I would be curious about why the standard factory shot shells (Speer?) don't fit in your gun.

They seem to in lots of other guns, what is different about yours??

[Grant 14]

I have no idea why the chamber is different in the derringer. My dad bought it new in 1962. German made , but no name on it. I have shot a few regular 38 rounds thru it with no problem other that terrible wrist snap. I doubt it has had a box of shells thru it in almost 60 years, but it is a perfect small snake gun for hunting or being around my property in the summer. I didnt even know it had an odd chamber until I ran out of the old style snake shot that was the same length as the case. Maybe they were overly careful to make sure someone didnt force a 357 into it. I would certainly not shoot a +P in the little beast. Just another mystery of the firearms world. Grant.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Grant 14,

It's probably because the chamber in the derringer isn't a smooth bore over the full length of the cartridge as it is in a revolver cylinder. You'll have to make a chamber cast or impression to be sure, but if I were designing a derringer, I wouldn't want to use up that much of the limited barrel length on freebore, so I would put the throat where there is a more modest amount of jump from a conventionally shaped bullet bearing surface to the lands.

I have some of the Speer shot capsules and could not get the square end of one to fit into the rifling of either of the Dan Wesson 357 barrels I had on the bench, nor into the muzzle of my K-38. They measure about 0.350" at that squared-off tip and about 0.354" at the open back end. That difference is a small draft angle to make them easy to pop out of their injection mold. The SAAMI bore minimum is 0.346" and maximum is 0.350", with most guns falling in the middle at 0.348" bore and 0.357" groove. So these capsules just aren't going to slip into an average rifled portion of a .38 Special barrel. So I'm guessing you have the shorter leade I described and that would certainly account for what you experience trying to chamber one.

See my potential pressure warning below.


Rodfac,

You need to put the required off-book load warning at the top of a post when it isn't a published load technique. In this instance, I have put it in for you. Why it is important is outlined below.

If I understand your loading technique correctly, you are loading 3.5 grains of Bullseye with zero powder space. With a 111 grain projectile, QuickLOAD estimates the pressure at 27,000 psi assuming the start pressure is like having a saboted bullet. That assumes a chamber like the Derringer's, with no vent. It also assumes the diameter of the throat will be fully occupied and allow no gas bypass. It also assumes the projectile isn't unseated by the primer before the powder can get its burn up to pace. It also assumes the shot doesn't make space by compacting under pressure. Quite possibly, none of those conditions will hold. So actual pressure can only be determined by measuring. It is probably OK, based on your experience with it, but if that depends on the barrel/cylinder gap of a revolver being present to help with gas bypass or not, I can't say. If it does, peak pressure could be higher in the Derringer than your gun is experiencing. It's a bit of an unknown.

[rodfac]

Unclenick, you're absolutely correct...my omission. I've seen no pressure indications (flat primers, cratering, nor expansion above the case web), but seating directly on the powder, ie. no space, does raise pressure and is a factor I'd not considered.

Mitigating against high pressure would be the thinness of the coffee can lid wads, and the shot load which doesn't fit tightly into the rifling that say a wadcutter would, allowing gas blowby....don't know... but may help in an overpressure load as you have pointed out. Those thin wads aren't much of a gas seal I'd guess.

Thanks for the warning and for adding the caution to my post. In light of the questionable pressures that may be present, I'm deleting my previous post.

Best regards, Rod

[Grant 14]

Unclenick, now that all makes sense to me.Thank you very much. The only thing that I have to consider now is if my shortening the capsule will have any effect on chamber pressure. I believe that the capsule seats to the same depth into the case, so any space required (powder space) would be the same (thats my theory which is why I am asking) and the slightly lighter weight of shot should give less chamber pressure. I think I will make up a few and try them in my old 38/44 S&W Outdoorsman. I will compare recoil with the modified shells and standard CCI snake shot. If you or any other more knowing person thinks this is dangerous, please say so. I dont know how to add the notice of non book loads, but maybe it should be up. Thanks again, Grant.

[Unclenick]

Grant,

Just follow the link I put in post #12. The warning is there. You just drag your mouse over it to select it and then copy and paste it into the top of the composition window.

If you are simply shortening the shot capsule and seating it no deeper, then, as you say, the pressure will tend to go down due to the shot being lighter. Be aware the inside of the capsule has a taper as the outside does, so if you shorten it too much the snap-in ribs on the cap may distort the bottom out of round and make it a little harder to insert into the case.

[Grant 14]

I think this will all work out good. I will make up few and try them and get back to the forum and let you all know. Unclenick, thank you. Grant.

[reloader28]

Most people I know hate those blue capsules because they dont stay in place.
You can make some snakeshot by cutting down 357 maximum brass. You have to use a .222 size die to put a taper on it to fit in the chamber.
Makes very good loads tho

[FrankenMauser]

Trail Force
https://www.recoilweb.com/browning-d...ds-145325.html

[mkl]

A long time ago I made snake shot in .38 and .357 using gas checks. No shot capsule.

1 or 2 grains of Bullseye and then a gas check bottom down over the powder seated with a pencil (eraser pushing gas check down to touch the powder). Filled with #9 shot and then another gas check (bottom up) to seal at top of case. A light crimp to hold the gas check in.

Before that when I had no gas checks, I used a cardboard wad over the powder and after filling with shot sealed with a couple of drops of Elmer's glue on top of the shot. The glue sticks the shot together and to the side of the caes so it doesn't fall out; the impact of the powder breaks the glue into indvidual shot pellets before it exits the barrel.

Leading was not bad due to low velocity; pattern not too good but did kill a few snakes while I was fishing along the banks of a creek or lake.

[Scorch]

I used to make shot shells for 357 and 38 using gas checks as wads. Worked pretty well. But I always found it a lot easier to just avoid the snakes. Not even sure i have any of the shot shells anymore, that was 35+ years ago. I loaded them with Unique (I loaded EVERYTHING with Unique back then), .357" gas check seated on the powder, a Lee dipper full of #7-1/2 shot, another gas check on top crimped in place with the regular 38/357 dies.

I also loaded 45 ACP shot shells using RCBS 45 Shot dies, 45 Win Mag brass, Unique, a .410 plastic shot wad, 1/4 oz of 7-1/2 shot, and a gas check crimped in place. Worked pretty darn well.

[Grant 14]

I found my box of CCI 38 shotshells which are the blue capsules and dont work in my derringer. Also in the box were a couple of yellow capsule rounds. It turns out that they were actual SPEER rounds and looked a bit narrower at the end of the plastic. They drop into the chamber just fine. It appears that SPEER was aware of the issue years ago, but the yellow capsules that they now sell for reloading snake shot are the same diameter as the CCI blue capsules and wont chamber. It is only about .011" difference. Probably the old guy at SPEER that was in charge of this sort of thing retired and the new guy didnt know there was any issue. From reading in our forum, I assume that this is a rare problem and most companies would not worry about the tiny percent of guns that have this issue. I have not fired my SHORTENED CCI round yet, I cant say anything about pressure indicators, but since the CCI rounds have no loose powder,( just a contained charge) and the seating depth is roughly the same, I dont think I will have any problem with them. Other than firing a couple of test rounds, I think my problem is solved. THANK YOU ALL, Grant.

[Grant 14]

!!! I take back what I said about the CCI shells having no powder. I just went to my bench to shorten a few capsules and pulled one from a CCI, and found powder. I had opened one a week ago or so and would swear that it had no powder in it when I did. I keep my bench clean and my eyesight is good with reading glasses which I always wear and didnt find powder in the first one. I am not sure what is the problem (probably me), so I will open several more and if they all have powder, then I will go ahead and shorten them as planned. I weighed the powder and it was 4.6 grains of a fine disc type. I have no idea what it actually is. The inside of the case looked (again) like it had some kind of tiny strap over the primer. It did not look at all like a normal primer from the inside. I will let you know when I have fired a few and see what the results are. Grant.

[FrankenMauser]

The powder was probably clumped and stuck in the case or to the plug for the capsule, and you didn't notice it.
It is not at all uncommon for even lightly compressed powder charges to clump, and that load is probably more than 'lightly' compressed.

[44 AMP]

I also loaded 45 ACP shot shells using RCBS 45 Shot dies, 45 Win Mag brass, Unique, a .410 plastic shot wad, 1/4 oz of 7-1/2 shot, and a gas check crimped in place. Worked pretty darn well.

As someone who has a couple of .45 Win Mags to feed, I cringe at the thought of wasting those cases making .45acp shotshells.

I'd rather cut off (and ream) .30-06 if I needed to...

[Unclenick]

Grant,

Glad you have it basically solved.

Out of curiosity, are the smaller old shot capsules also narrower at the breech end? If so, having them back out and jam cylinder rotation during shooting a revolver probably explains the change. What they could have done was widen only the breech end and put a slight bottleneck in the mold to roll a crimp over top of and left the nose the diameter of a bore-riding cast bullet design coming away from the bottleneck and into the draft angle (for mold release). But injection molds are expensive to make, so I am not entirely surprised they don't jump to make another every time someone has grief with their current design. Also, that approach would mean separate 38 and 357 capsules or just making them all 357 and sacrificing powder space in the 38 Special.