6.5 Creed will replace the 243

[HiBC]

Creedmoor:

6.5 140 bc .490 sd= .287 load data: 143 gr Hornady ELD-X 2,710 ft/s

.308 win:

.308 150 bc .380 sd =.226 Load data: 150 gr Nosler tip 2,820 ft/s

???
Looks to me like someone is attempting to stack the deck.

Why would you compare one of the heavier,sleeker 6.5 bullets to a 150 gr 30 cal?
Go to the Nosler site .The 168 gr Ballistic Tip shows the same .490 BC and exceeds 2800 fps with Varget and RE-15.

FWIW,the 150 gr Ballistic Tip shows a BC of .435.The quoted .380 is false.
The 150 Partition shows a BC of .385.

I'm not sure who was trying to make what point,but if you don't start with honest numbers you won't reach an honest conclusion.(to Wikipedia)

As far as the .243 being replace by the 6.5 Creedmoor...??????

That makes about as much sense as saying the 270 will be replaced by the 7-08.(Or some other cartridge de jour)

I'm sure the 6.5 CM,like the 6.5x55 is a very fine,capable cartridge.
It deserves to be popular. Cool. Its good the gun writers have some new material to sandwich between the "Venerable,Versatile 30-06 "articles.

At least the 6.5 CM is not another overbore magnum.It could be the 6.5 RUM.Yawn.

[mikejonestkd]

I have been using the .243 win for over 20 years, and its just fine for our big old fat corn fed deer in upstate NY. to paraphrase another forum member's quote " it kills bigger than it ought to"

I will place a bet that the .243 outlasts the 6.5 creedmore in the hunting fields.

[hooligan1]

I'm goin to race with those odds, I own both a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .243 Winchester, I haven't shot any game with my Creedmoor yet, but have taken a half dozen with .243 over the years, and it does it easily really.
They both have a spot in the world, don't see any signs of one taken the other over though.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Wow! how popular the 6.5 Creedmoor has become since its marketing?
Honestly I haven't read about many sportsman/hunters tripping over one and another lately in hopes to trade their 243s and 25-06s so to own their very own Creedmoor.
Although I will admit its identification {Creedmoor} is kind of catchy.

[Guv]

It will replace the 243, 270, 308, 30-06 at the same time as the 10mm replaces the:
9mm, 40s&w, 45ACP. Oh and the 44 magnum depending on your uses.

[handlerer2]

This replacement will require support for those unfortunate misguided souls that thought they were content with the 243 for the many uses they found for it.

Replacement such as these should require counseling and support groups, formed in advance of notifications that your favorite tool is obsolete and is being replaced.


I must count myself fortunate in never having aquired one, so am able to avoid the the pain of replacement.

There should be a non-profit where we can send or money to help these poor misguided souls who never knew that their 243 was so inferior that replacement would ever be required.

If anyone knows of such an organization, please post a link so we can offer aid and support to those unfortunates affected.

[Model12Win]

The Creeder Critter is making inroads.

But the .243 is a classic.

[stagpanther]

Mama always says:

[briandg]

Hi bc, I worked for about a half hour digging that stuff up and putting it together.

The reason that I compared those two bullets is that they have nearly identical weight and velocity..

The reason for choosing those two bullets is because they are both available hunting bullets, from Sierra, with similar profile and weight.

The load data was chosen for both from Wikipedia, it was handy, and despite the reputation they have among people who don't use it, they are very rarely wrong.
Moderators follow the pages and keep it straight.

The reason that the data of load is nosler is that it is load data from a commercial source,the ballistics data is from Sierra, for both bullets, to keep things fair. the bc for the 150 .308 is, in fact, exactly what I reported it to be.

That was honest data, taken from reliable information, provided to give an honest, if informal assessment of how the cm could compare to the .308 in simple real world hunting ammo.

If I had wanted to screw around with the truth I would have compare 180 grain match hp bullets. Looking at hornady non typical, an ordinary hunting rounds the cm gets 2,750, and in American white tail from hornady, the .308 gets 2,820.

My hope and intention was to pick out some examples, match them, and put the things in context, then explain in pretty general terms, what they might mean to the guy who gets a $700 setup and buys ordinary hunting rounds to use for deer or other game in an average situation, like pretty much all of my state is.

Those things are nearly identical in velocity. The .308 has a ten grain weight advantage and a pretty much negligible diameter advantage. I don't see clear advantages to either of them for ordinary use, as longer range guns I give a slight edge to the cm because it will obviously have flatter trajectory and better retained velocity and energy.

I have no axe to grind anywhere. The .243 is perfect for what it is meant to do. So are the other two. But the fact is that the creedmoor is a better round than either of them if there is a need for the advantages that it offers.

I hope that someone actually read these things and benefited from an unbiased assessment.

[reynolds357]

You obviously don't have any experience with the .243 Win. The .243 Win like all other cartridges is only as good as the person pulling the trigger. The .243 can and will kill deer with authority.

The .243 keeps getting better and better as bullet technology evolves. I will admit that 40 years ago I considered the .243 marginal on Whitetail deer. Now, I consider the .223 marginal on Whitetail and the .243 well adequate.

[briandg]

With the common cup and core from the past, untapered jacket and no special features, It was somewhat of a crap shoot whether you would get proper expansion, get the classic mushroom, retain all of the weight. The best projectiles now have a feature to initiate expansion and one to halt it. Some of the things are even bonded to assure that there isn't any weight loss, some are solids.

Not implying that the bullets of the past were junk. There were bonded, partitions, tipped, all going back to the sixties and earlier. Now, however, we've had decades to refine the alloys and dimensions.

The poly tip is meant to initiate expansion, then the partition, bonding, etc, these features limit the expansion. The old fashioned cup and core are still the same, they still work, but the new engineered bullets are as close to fail safe as they can get.

Today, it's hard to say that anything over a .223 is marginal if the shot is good. That .243 bullet can perform perfectly and it can certainly produce lethal wounds with the weight and velocity.

[MagnumWill]

Originally Posted by briandg

Data drawn from Sierra and wikipedia, it shows that the 140 grain creedmoor has a much better ballistic coefficient than the 150 grain .308, and it only sacrifices 100 fps or so in velocity; I didn't go through the ballistics charts, but I am presuming that the creedmoor will give usefully flatter trajectories and greater remaining energy out past 200, and I personally believe that with good, controlled expansion bullets it would work just as well, or maybe even better, than a .308 in bigger game. It's fully capable of blow through on big animals with that high sd.

Just for the purposes of discussion, it's really obvious that the CM is a great cartridge, and that it can serve quite well as a large game long range round, lower recoil, short action, flat, fast, capable of excellent accuracy.

For practical purposes, though, the entire question is answered with a big "so what? The others do just as well for me". Most of those rifles loaded for the creedmoor, I truly believe, gain very little, or no advantage, because there is no benefit to be gained at the ranges where the 6.5 actually shows an edge. I've never hunted anywhere that really provided shots beyond 300. My preferred game rifle is a .243, if I ever hunted beyond 200 or so, I'd carry my 30-06, If I ever had the opportunity to hunt longer range, I'd have to get a newer, more accurate rifle, better optics, and since the option would be available, i would definitely consider buying a 6.5 creedmoor.

I literally don’t have a dog in this fight as I have neither a 6.5, .243 or a .308 Winchester, but I like to point out that it’s common to draw the comparison that “6.5 has better ballistics than the .308”. because one compares the heaviest match bullet they can find in the Creedmoor against a mediocre .308 150gr bullet.

According to my Hornady manual here, i’m looking at the 6.5 data, and their 140gr ELDM bullet has a B/C of .585, which IMO is pretty darn good (I say anything over .400 will definitely perform well 500+ yards), but if you look up a 208 grain ELDM bullet for the .308 it has a B/C of .648. That right there is much better, at (obviously) cost of recoil.

However, i think the argument that “6.5 has better ballistics” is being very selective when comparing commercial ammo. If you reload, your options become MUCH more open.

Heck, if you reload then .308 is absolutely better in almost all aspects than the Creed. More brass, more case capacity, a ridiculous amount of bullet availability, if you want to shoot 1000+ yards, your 208’s will kick butt out there, if you want some light kicking loads, a 110gr VMAX with ~30ish grains of powder is the ticket, etc.

...just talking about it makes me want to get a .308

[briandg]

Will, i thought that I made it completely clear that I was discussing only standard hunting bullets and loads, matching the 140 and 150, at nearly identical velocities of factory available ammunition.

I could have screwed with the data, cherry picking the worst of one and the best of the other, but I had only one intention, to compare the two calibers on even terms for one purpose and equal footing.


I think that even in the decade to come, the standard rounds will still have far greater trust and appeal than the exotics like the creedmore. Some states have limitations on bottlenecks, there won't be a lever designed for it, some states require shotgun only, and as mentioned, terrain counts. If the springfield based rounds are still around, it shows that the antiques that still work satisfy the people who just want a rifle to get things done.

We can say the same thing about handguns. Straight wall semiautos, there really isn't anywhere else to go, as far as I can understand. What gaps do we have to fill?.380, 9mm, .357 sig. .40 and 10 mm. 45 acp and a couple variants. Maybe a true magnum someday? I don't think so, not on any regular basis.

Are the .44 magnum, .45 colt, .454 casull going to be replaced by bigger bore monsters? never.

Every variation on the .308 fits a perfect niche for a wide range of game. the .358 winchester may be the only caliber that isn't a true success.

I personally believe that people are still going to resist even the concept of the 6.5. Despite the obvious usefulness, people have avoided that bore size. With two magnum rounds available for decades, it never caught on. There was never a commercially successful magnum in 257 or 6mm either, to my recollection. The 'magnum' .22 rounds were niche rounds.

We really need to look at other 6.5 rounds. I generally go to midway to see what the larger market is doing. would you believe that they don't carry winchester .264 magnum in winchester, only one factory loadby remington? the 6.5 remington magnum only has a single number. the 6.5x55? hard to call it a commrcial success, remington, for example, doesn't appear to have hunting rifles in the caliber.

I don't know what the future holds for these things, there is a new generation out there, there is a desire for new and fancy, high tech things, and traditionalists are dying off. We may see the springfield based rounds disappear just like the 7x57 did.

[Guv]

A 140gr .264 bullet and
a 150gr .308 bullet are in no way a good comparison.
If you are making a point as to really long distance performance then more than likely heavier rifles with recoil reducing devices would be used.
Lessening the recoil differences.

[Jevyod]

Funny thing about the CM hype, I was in my local gun shop and he had got a few in and only could sell 1. Made me think that maybe not everyone is selling off other firearms and rushing in to buy a CM like the gun rags want you to believe!
One other thing I am seeing with the whole rage, makes people think that if they get one it automatically makes them a 1000 yard target shooter. Now most here obviously know better, but if a guy knows little enough about ballistics to believe that the CM has some "magic" quality that makes it better than all other long range calibers, then he probably has no business shooting 1000 yards at a target, or even worse, 700 yards at a deer.

[44 AMP]

The load data was chosen for both from Wikipedia, it was handy, and despite the reputation they have among people who don't use it, they are very rarely wrong.

Wiki told me the first .357 Magnum was the S&W model 27, in 1935.

right year, wrong gun!!

perhaps a minor error, but when they get little stuff wrong, how you do you know they get the big stuff right??

trust, but VERIFY!!
(and especially any and all loading data!!)

[Zen Archery]

O boy... Where do I even start...
How about stop comparing cartridges and shoot what you shoot.

[stagpanther]

O boy... Where do I even start...
How about stop comparing cartridges and shoot what you shoot.

Mama says people don't like the creedmoor when they have a big medulla oblongata.

[Guv]

I think I got a shot for that one time

[doofus47]

stagpanther

a big medulla oblongata

You keep using words like that on a public forum and the moderators are gonna get angerrreeee!

6.5CM are very effective cartridges for hunting or long distance shooting, but the .243 has such a large usage base that I don't see it ever being left in a corner when the discussion is about small/medium sized game.

[stagpanther]

These kinds of threads get really old really fast--especially when they keep repeating.

Master Jedi says "there's always a bigger fish."

[arcwarden]

I would like to see how the 6.5 Creedmoor stacks up against the 224 Valkyrie

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by arcwarden

I would like to see how the 6.5 Creedmoor stacks up against the 224 Valkyrie

At what? For an all around rifle the 6.5 Creedmoor has more to offer IMO.

[stagpanther]

I would like to see how the 6.5 Creedmoor stacks up against the 224 Valkyrie

Apples to watermelons comparison. Much closer would be to compare Grendel to valk.

[Rifletom]

Only two pages!? On another forum, they have a "debate" on the 6.5 CM replacing the 30-06. That was up to nine pages last I could stand to look. 6.5 CM probably isn't going to replace/negate anything; just add to it. Like an earlier poster said, shoot what you have and be happy.