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Old November 26, 2021, 10:07 PM   #26
44 AMP
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The military doesn't issue anyone ammunition to defend themselves with. Forget that idea, right out of the gate.

The logic is simple, if a bit brutal. Protecting the individual soldier's life is not priority #1. Completing the mission, is.

We use FMJ ("ball") simply because it functions the best under all possible conditions. The fact that it also complies with the Hague accords (which we never signed) is simply a plus. The military accepts the fact that the FMJ bullet is the least efficient in stopping power, compared to SP and HP designs, but in their view, the reliable feeding of FMJ over other designs outweighs its inefficiency.

Put another way, a ball round that feeds and fired is worth more than an SP or HP that jams and doesn't fire.

As a civilian, I take the opposite view, protecting my personal posterior (and my loved ones) is job #1. we just have different priorities is all.
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Old November 26, 2021, 10:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Second, I don't think I would be interested in having to say that I picked a particular type of ammunition for self-defense because the military issues it. The military performs offensive operations, not just defensive operations and personally, I wouldn't care to answer questions in a self-defense case about why I thought I needed "military ammunition" in my self-defense gun.
The military also (generally) adheres to a Hague convention that prohibits the use of anti-personnel ammunition with expanding bullets that cause unnecessary suffering -- which is generally interpreted to mean no hollow-point ammunition.

http://www.weaponslaw.org/instrument...ue-declaration

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/f...nd_et_loye.pdf
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Old November 26, 2021, 11:46 PM   #28
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These days, an honest response might be "Thats what the store had in stock"
In KR's case,it seemed thats what his friend had purchased. What options did KR have?

In the case of KR, What difference in outcome would a different bullet or load have provided?

I think those who died would have died if expanding bullets had been used.

Maybe Gaige's arm would have been worse.

No "collateral" injuries were reported. The prosecutor's line of questioning was irrelevant barn carpet. What was the point?
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Old November 27, 2021, 01:30 AM   #29
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What was the point?
The point of that kind of question, in court, is to elicit an answer that can be made to support your argument. And, it's kind of the "magician's force" sort of thing.

If the answer is you chose FMJ bullets, then the prosecutor points out to the jury how they "penetrate through people" and therefore, using them shows a "reckless disregard" for the safety of others.

If the answer is soft points or hollow points, then the prosecutor points out how those bullets cause huge horrifying wounds, and so your intent was to kill people, because "regular" (fmj) ammo wasn't "deadly enough" for you!!...


Both arguments are easily refutable with facts, HOWEVER, once heard, the cannot be "unheard". Even if the judge rules the jury must disregard them, once heard, that bell cannot be "unrung"...
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Old November 27, 2021, 05:24 PM   #30
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44 nailed it , I’ll also add that Rittenhouse had two different brands of ammo loaded in the mag . They did not specify if they were loaded staggered or if it was one brand all together in the mag then the next . Staggered or mixed “could” indicate understanding and or intent of what each type is designed to do . Like I’ve heard guys staggering buckshot and slugs in the tube of there shotgun .

If he had one box of 20 rds of ammo A and simple topped off his 30rd mag with 10rd from a different manufactured ammo . That to me would indicate Kyle really did think a bullet is a bullet is a bullet .
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Last edited by Metal god; November 27, 2021 at 09:21 PM.
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Old November 27, 2021, 07:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
The point of that kind of question, in court, is to elicit an answer that can be made to support your argument. And, it's kind of the "magician's force" sort of thing.

If the answer is you chose FMJ bullets, then the prosecutor points out to the jury how they "penetrate through people" and therefore, using them shows a "reckless disregard" for the safety of others.

If the answer is soft points or hollow points, then the prosecutor points out how those bullets cause huge horrifying wounds, and so your intent was to kill people, because "regular" (fmj) ammo wasn't "deadly enough" for you!!...
I provided good answers that will bypass that sort of nonsense.

This isn't really complicated at all and there are simple approaches to dealing with the situation and for answering questions that arise.
Quote:
The military also (generally) adheres to a Hague convention that prohibits the use of anti-personnel ammunition with expanding bullets that cause unnecessary suffering -- which is generally interpreted to mean no hollow-point ammunition.
Another great reason (just one of many) not to get involved with discussing what the military issues as ammunition in the context of a self-defense case.
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