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Old October 28, 2021, 12:47 PM   #1
bamaranger
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vintage heavy duty double sxs???

Some time back I recall reading an article concerning a vintage sxs double intended primarily for market hunting and high volume shooting. Relatively plain finish, wood chosen for straight grain, and frame/lockwork HD as well, the phrase "heavy duck gun" comes to mind, but I think that was a pump.

Am thinking a Parker Trojan...............???????
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Old October 29, 2021, 09:09 AM   #2
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Don't know about that usage, but some refined gentry have called my LC Smith a "...farm implement..."

All I know is that it shoots better than I do.
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Old November 5, 2021, 12:57 PM   #3
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tools

I'm pretty sure the LC's were not the focus of the article...though I read it years ago. I'm leaning towards the Parkers, I may have saved the article, I intend to root through my archives.
A good friend who has done a lot of stock work on old shotguns, and quite a bit of trading at shows, says he has never handled a "loose" LC, a testimony to fit and metallurgy, as well as care by owners.

Regarding "tools", the blue collar Stevens 311's certainly do fit in that category. Notice how it's difficult to find a clean one, and if you do, the price even they will bring. Especially 20's and .410's.

I've been on a shotgun kick lately, SxS and o/u both, after shooting a few rounds of skeet.
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Old November 5, 2021, 03:28 PM   #4
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"Duck gun," often said "heavy duck gun" was usually a reference to Winchester Model 12 pump and Model 21 double with 32" full choke barrels and 3" chambers. There were other features, even beefed up receivers and weights in the stock to balance the long barrels.
Not usually seen with vent rib to avoid nooks and crannies for dirt and water at the marsh.

I am sure you could call about any good stout gun a "heavy duck gun" but I don't know of another with it in the literature.
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Old November 6, 2021, 05:43 AM   #5
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I have an Elsie 10 gauge, 32" barrels, full and extra full chokes from 1907. It's a heavy beast, certainly not meant to carry over hill and dale. Damascus, so I only shoot black powder loaded in brass shotshells with the original 3 1/2 drams under 1 1/4 oz. shot. Patterns as it should at 40 yards. Might try for turkey next Spring, but I doubt a market hunter would have used it.
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Old November 6, 2021, 08:18 AM   #6
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There have been many that fit the description, but I believe only the Winchester 12, 21, and 23s ever were labelled as such. I had a 23, lusted for a 21, and loved it but was always worried I was going to bash it. Lot of 10 gauge examples up in to the 80s. I had a Matador and a Richland - Worked well but heavy.
Oddly, I shot an inexpensive fairly light 70 era Rossi SxS that wrecked my middle finger without a cobbled up leather guard better than any other SxS I ever used for waterfowl. I had a piece of 0.0015" shim material in the hinge joint so the barrels didn't rattle.
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Old November 12, 2021, 12:00 AM   #7
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When I hear the term “market hunting” I always think of 8 gauge.
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Old November 12, 2021, 10:06 AM   #8
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Punt guns for market hunters
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Old November 12, 2021, 11:55 AM   #9
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I recently did a pat search on a guy in an alley at work and he had two 8 gauge 00 buck shells in his pocket. Damndest thing. Never run into that in 23 years. Said he found em digging through a trash can.
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Old November 12, 2021, 03:39 PM   #10
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INDUSTRIAL

The printing on the side of the hull is my clue here, and the gauge.

Are you sure they were 00 buck? What do I think they actually are?

There is an 8 gauge gun used in foundries to blast the "clinkers" I think the term is from inside the crucible or furnace for making steel.

8 gauge specialized gun made for foundries, pretty sure they are slugs, however I have only heard and read about them.
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Old November 12, 2021, 05:21 PM   #11
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They actually say 00 buck on the side and 8 gauge on the head stamp.
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Old November 12, 2021, 05:22 PM   #12
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If they’re still on my partners desk I’ll get a picture of the writing on the side.
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Old November 12, 2021, 08:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
I recently did a pat search on a guy in an alley at work and he had two 8 gauge 00 buck shells in his pocket. Damndest thing. Never run into that in 23 years. Said he found em digging through a trash can.
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They say industrial on the side; they are for a tripod mounted kiln gun used to blast slag off boiler walls; we went with those after destroying some Remington 1100s
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Old November 13, 2021, 12:12 AM   #14
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punt guns

Certainly punt guns were a tool used by market hunters. But not the only tool, and some market hunters certainly did not use them. Regardless, there would be a need for a gun to finish cripples and to try and pick up ocassional passing birds.

The more I think about this, the more I recall concerning the article I read, and it discussed punt guns, as well as the more conventional guns that were popular. As the long twelve gauges were not on the scene yet, the 10 gauge was common. I recall a discussion that any double gun bigger than 10 gauge required much a man to swing all day.

I am going now to check my archives.
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Old November 13, 2021, 12:26 AM   #15
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Fred Kimble, the American market hunter credited with choke boring (if you don't read Greener) shot a 6 gauge muzzleloader with 6 drams powder, only 1 1/2 oz no. 3s.

When the Feds got involved, the 10 ga became the maximum for migratory game and most states followed suit.
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Old November 15, 2021, 07:47 AM   #16
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Parker

Did someone say Parker?
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Old November 17, 2021, 09:05 PM   #17
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quit that

Oh great, now some pics to fuel my double gun craze with which I;ve recently been afflicted.........

Very nice.
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Old November 18, 2021, 07:01 AM   #18
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More?

Nothing points like a SXS.
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Old November 19, 2021, 11:52 AM   #19
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Here’s the rest of the writing on the 8 gauge shells.

Also, after googling the cartridge mode number Winchester still makes them, and they’re used for kilns as noted above.
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Old November 19, 2021, 12:47 PM   #20
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Note that the kiln gun shells are "belted" so you can't drop one into Great Grandpa's Goose Gun and demolish it. Although I have read of removing the belt by cutting or swaging to use the cases (but not the ammo) in old guns.

But:
I read an old gunzine article, the author bought an 8 bore double rifle with nitro proofed steel barrels. He thought it was from the early smokeless era when people did not realize that the increase in pressure and progressivity made "small bore" rifles like .450 Nitro fully adequate for the biggest game. So this gunmaker just took advantage of smokeless in his usual product.

At the time, there was not the selection of obsolete components, so the author had some cases turned out of aluminum. Why not brass? He didn't say. But the aluminum cases split and left him with score marks in the chamber to polish out.
So his next step was to send the rifle off to an English gunmaker who rechambered it for 8 bore industrial and had it proved for the factory loads.

The author said it shot well with those, but did kick a bit. A PWH declined to shoot it at a paper target, saying that he did not want to acquire a flinch that might get a customer stomped or eaten.
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Old November 20, 2021, 10:42 PM   #21
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While not labeled "heavy duty" the Lafever(Ithaca) Nitro Special is a rugged but plain SXS with double triggers. Mine in 12 ga dates from 1939 with 30" barrels choked mod & full (actually imp modified / x full by todays standards). It locks up tight and is a blast for trap shooting. Drop at heel takes some getting used to.
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Old November 21, 2021, 07:07 AM   #22
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LaFever Nitro Special. Nice gun. I was able to pick one up the same day (years ago) that I bought an ithaca Flues.
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Old November 21, 2021, 11:00 AM   #23
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Here is an article on the 8 gauge kiln gun that ammo was designed for. The ones we used for boiler slag were single shots. We rented the gun from Winchester and they sold us the ammo
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...rial-shotguns/

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Old November 21, 2021, 11:29 AM   #24
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My agency used them to shoot the clinker out of kilns and also to tap the slag chute of phosphorus furnaces. A two man crew could get up a pretty good rate of fire, needed to keep hitting and tap the slag before it froze back up.

We used a plain old Remington 1100 to shoot obstructing slag from the outlet of our Texaco coal gasifier.
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Old November 21, 2021, 06:47 PM   #25
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Darkgael: That's great, my Nitro Special shares space in the safe with a 1909 Flues. I think that was first year of production. The Flues is pretty worn so I use very light hand loads or black powder even though the barrels are labeled for nitro. Fun to shoot skeet with it.
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