March 1, 2020, 11:18 AM | #1 |
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Winchester 1873 ammo
Just bought a Winchester 1873 rifle made in 1883. In great condition. Looking for ammo recommendations for just plinking and range target shooting.
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March 1, 2020, 11:43 AM | #2 |
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What cartridge? HSM ammunition offers .44-40, .38-40, and .32-20 at fairly reasonable prices. It is all low pressure loads geared towards Cowboy Action Shooting, but should fit the bill you've described.
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March 1, 2020, 11:56 AM | #3 |
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Oh it is a .44-40
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March 1, 2020, 01:56 PM | #4 |
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An M1873 built in 1883 is probably not a smokeless action. Is it safe to fire smokeless in it? I certainly won’t say either way, but the pressure curve for blackpowder is significantly different than that of smokeless. Personally, I’d fell better is the rifle was produced when smokeless loads were common. YMMV.
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March 1, 2020, 02:08 PM | #5 |
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I think probably the cowboy action loads would be suitable. Even the modern clones of the Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters are not all that strong. I haven't owned an M73 in years but the one I had was a 38 WCF (38-40) in generally fair shape. At the time there were two loads sold for those old cartridges, one for handguns and one, a more modern load with jacketed bullet for the later 1892 Winchester and not recommended for handguns. I shot the pistol level loads in my rifle without problem. I did have a gunsmith check the rifle out beforehand and he said it would be safe for the handgun level loads. If the OP's rifle in mechanically sound, then cowboy loads.loading and enjoy. Have a competent gunsmith check it out first.
Paul B.
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March 1, 2020, 02:16 PM | #6 |
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I'd re-think the idea of shooting it at all. There's an 1880 vintage, .44-40, '73 on Guns International with a $48,500.00 USD price tag on it.
Another 1883 .44-40 on Collector Firearms at $17,500.00.
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March 1, 2020, 02:28 PM | #7 |
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It's not proofed for smokeless but cowboy loads should be safe in it. Your best bet is reloading with black.
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March 1, 2020, 06:28 PM | #8 |
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Mine is in real nice condition. Set me back a tad over 2k.
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March 1, 2020, 07:08 PM | #9 |
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Load holy black. It's easy. Can't overload. You won't fit 40 grains in a modern case, but it will still send a 200 cast with authority. Cleanup is not difficult, just messy. Enjoy!
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March 1, 2020, 07:35 PM | #10 |
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Keep it BP.
Even "cowboy" smokeless loadings have a much faster pressure rise-time (i.e., spike) compared to BP -- even for the same eventual max pressure. Cleanup... just get a small funnel and pour hot water/drop of dishsoap down the barrel, chased w/ a braided-wire bore pull-through/tight patch or two. While still warm, swab from muzzle w/ std 1-piece Dewey/RemOil/BreakFree CLP patch(es) and you're done. Last edited by mehavey; March 1, 2020 at 07:43 PM. |
March 1, 2020, 08:15 PM | #11 |
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Well . I just bought some Black Hills .44-40 WCF 200 gr. RNFP Cowboy to run through it.
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March 2, 2020, 07:22 AM | #12 |
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(Notwithstanding my counsel op cit) Black Hills was the most accurate ammunition in my Taylor's/Uberti `73
(`til i figured out how to duplicate it) |
March 2, 2020, 09:47 AM | #13 |
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I've shot them in 32/20 and in 44/40 for years, and they are fun with proper loads. I only use lead bullets in them as they do not build as high of pressures as the jacketed loads, and I load them at basically starting load levels.
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March 2, 2020, 10:25 AM | #14 |
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the prices quoted in a earlier post are not for a run of the mill 1873 44-40 carbine-rifle in very good condition in the real world, they would be very special Winchester 1873 rifles you can bet on that.
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March 2, 2020, 06:18 PM | #15 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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March 2, 2020, 09:00 PM | #16 |
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I have not seen this "pressure curve" for black vs Nitro powders except an ungraduated sketch in an old NRA article about shotgun shells.
Where can I find the numbers this Common Internet Assertion is based on? |
March 11, 2020, 07:59 PM | #17 |
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More myths about smokeless powders!
In 1895 when Winchester introduced smokeless powder for the 44-40, it specifically named the Winchester 73' on the label. So that myth is BUSTED! In the beginning there was slow burning black powder. Then there was a little faster burning (faster than black or at least known to be unstable at times) smokeless powder that specifically replaced black powder. Then there was an improved smokeless powder to be used in black powder rifles and then by 1900, fast burning pistol powders. Also entwined was the newer slower burning rifle powders like SR-80, IMR-1204 and IMR-4227. By the time IMR-4227 was in full swing, as well as 2400, the black powder replacement powders died off leaving the slower burning rifle powders. As years passed these slower burning rifle powders were re-named MAGNUM powders. ANY MODERN FACTORY AMMUNITION is safe for your 44-40 as long as the rifle is in good sound operating condition. Even Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 is safe for it. With that said, I am still missing a "pressure" link from that time period. My early pre-1884 44-40 cartridge cases produced 14,000psi while the same loads in post-1884 WRA headstamped cases produced 12,000ish psi while the same loads in modern starline brass only produced 8,953psi. SAAMI didn't set a standard in stone until about 1970 at 12,000cup and by 2015 12,000cup/11,000psi....much lower than original black powder pressures. Pressure curves or no pressure curves.... Pre-1884 - 14,385psi, thats about 15,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps Post-1884 - 12,500psi, thats about 13,000ish cup (all firearms), 1,325fps 1895 Smokeless - unknown, safe for the Win. 73' (not for pistols),1,300fps 1900 Smokeless - unknown, safe for ALL FIREARMS, 1,300fps 1903 Smokeless - HV Low Pressures (unknown), Model 92 only, 1,500fps 1910 Smokeless - HV high pressures, 22,000cup, Model 92' and Marlin 88's/94's only, 1,570fps So why High Velocity Low pressures? During the early 1930's we can see that the powders used during that time included Sharpeshooter. On the back of the can it shows a "44-40 W.C.F. High Velocity" load of 17gr. We have to go look at the handloading data of the time to check the pressures. According to 1937 Sharpe, 17.3gr of Sharpeshooter produced....da da ta da.......14,000cup, maybe 13,000ish psi. Obviously lower than the early 14,000psi black powder loads BUT YET NOT FOR THE 73' OR PISTOLS!!!! It has also been said that the early smokeless powders, maybe Dupont #2, produced even less pressures than black powder. However, it has also been said that the "powdery" residue could settle into the primer pockets and create higher pressures. Confused yet? It all started with the .30-40 cal testings and is extremely related today! The early smokeless powders were developed using the 30-40 Krag thus the early smokeless powders could be considered .30 cal powders. Many of those .30 cal powders worked well in the ole black powder calibers to include the 44-40 and 45-70. By the mid 1930's, here were the popular powders; Black Powder replacements Dupont #1 - phased out Dupont #2 - phased out Sharpshooter - early .30 cal by Laflin & Rand Sharpshooter, now under Hercules...still a black powder replacement Lightning, another .30 cal powder also used in the 44-40 SR-80, a "bulky" 'Sporting Rifle-80' powder but not a Bulk powder like Dupont #2 IMR-1204 ("1204") another .30 cal powder to include "small calibers" IMR-4227, directly replaced 1204 (Today's IMR MAGNUM powder) 2400, designed for the 22 Hornet and 25-20 (Today's Alliant's MAGNUM powder) Pistol Powders Unique - Originally a shogun powder adapted to small calibers and as we all know, many calibers Bullseye - Came from "Infallible" floor sweepings but is/was position sensitive in large cal cases like the 44-40. With all of that said, I have settle with three loads Winchester 73' (Group I Rifles) Slower burning rifle powder, Reloder 7, 43-214A (427098 replica) 1,361fps @ 12,000psi (13,000ish cup). 40 consecutive shots inside 3 5/8" @ 100 yards. Can be used in revolvers but produce only 700fps due to slow burn rate. Marlin 1894CB (Group II Rifles) Slower burning IMR-4227, Winchester JSP, 1,590fps @ 18,000psi (22,000ish cup), 2 1/8" Groups @ 50 yards Pistols - Colt, Uberti (Consider them in Group I) Unique Trailboss Bullseye NOTE: Too fast for rifle loads and create too high pressures when trying to achieve 1,350fps or greater velocities......stay closer to 1,200fps or less when using in rifles. An accidental double charge of 6gr of Unique, which would be 12gr, can create 22,000psi (not cup) which is approx. 28,000cup to 33,000cup. SMOKELESS POWDER TRANSITION YEARS https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ansition-years
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https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 13, 2020 at 04:37 PM. |
March 11, 2020, 09:53 PM | #18 |
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Wow. Thanks for that info!
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March 12, 2020, 01:19 AM | #19 |
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I've never seen any tables or charts that equate CUP to psi. Most of the CUP readings I have seen are lower numbers than the actual psi readings from transducers, not the other way as you are showing. Otherwise, interesting info.
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March 12, 2020, 06:22 AM | #20 |
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There is a CUP "Correlation" -- though not Equation.
It's a curve fit of otherwise differently-based criteria https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf And carries with it it's own inherent error limits. as w/ any such derivation -- use with the understanding of those limits. |
March 12, 2020, 07:12 AM | #21 |
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As mehavey said, there is no correlation. However, SAAMI has tested the 44-40 in both cup and psi as I showed. 13,000cup is equal to 11,000psi as far as testing the same batch of cartridges in both a copper crusher test and the piezoelectric test. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...nsisaami-specs
We take those two test for the 44-40 and use a formula since they are so close together. Rather than post the "formula" here, I will post the reading material and let those of you that are interested pull the formula from it. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...essure-testing Again, the formula is only good for close proximity results. Using the formula, some Lyman replicated HV loads using certain powders resulted in 18,000psi. Using the formula, that number equates to 21,276 cup, which is very close to the 22,000cup mark. It may be much harder to equate higher pressures since cup and psi are not linear. Lyman's 49th handloading manual lists nineteen rifles chambered for the 44-40. Lyman separates these rifles into two groups, Group I weak actions and Group II strong actions. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...nsisaami-specs
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March 13, 2020, 12:02 PM | #22 |
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For 50 years i held onto an unfired, in the box, model 1873 rifle in .44-40 caliber. Couple years ago a man offered me more than i could refuse for the rifle.
The buyer had other model 1873 rifles that he reloaded for using smokeless powder. After less than ten rounds through the new old gun, the firing pin hit the primer on a round with a double charge of a fast burning powder. Luckily, the man was not hurt but the gun was destroyed. |
March 13, 2020, 03:04 PM | #23 |
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Yeap, the exact reason I use rifle powders. Reloader 7 is dirty but perfect for the old rifles.
An accidental double charge of 6gr of Unique, 12.gr, creates 21,786psi (Maybe 28,000cup or higher) during my tests. Targets/Load Development - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development My Uberti Winchesrt 73' "GO-TO" load - 3.3", 30 to 40 shot Group at 100 Yards https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/q8...RCizhNi8=w1280
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March 14, 2020, 09:44 AM | #24 |
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Do NOT use jacketed bullets in your rifle unless the barrel specifically states nickel steel.
I think that's too early for a nickel steel barrel, though, unless the barrel was a later replacement.
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March 14, 2020, 10:58 AM | #25 |
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My rifle is at my gunsmith's. He is checking it over. He will advise me. If I can't shoot it so be it. It is still a cool relic to have.
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