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Old November 8, 2018, 08:15 PM   #26
Bill DeShivs
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The gun has nothing to do with Ruger.
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Old November 9, 2018, 02:43 PM   #27
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It's a home made gun. Not old. The grips are made of Micarta-a phenolic resin. The gun is hot blued and assembled with hex screws. If it were old it would be rust blued and use conventional screws.
He is absolutely right. I can't count the things that make me agree with his assertions.

There is no ruger connection. The straight and rounded sections of both this gun and the ruger were designed for the slab sided ease of manufacture.

My impression is that it is in fact a target type such as the free pistol. A hammer isn't ideal, but it is workable and can be done easily by a non. Nothing about it matches to olympic gear, but if a guy wanted to make the ultimate hand made accuracy gun in a smith's shop, this is a good design. It probably shot like a dream. It may have been a prototype offered to a company as a new design for a new product, and the fact that NOBODY wants olympic style free pistols in .22 made it impractical to sell, even though manufacturing costs had to have been reasonable.

I'd jump on it for a decent price. It's surely one of a kind. It is worth a great deal to a person who likes that.

All my personal beliefs and there is a small possibility that I have mistaken in my assessment.
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Old November 9, 2018, 04:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
In the last photo, the one with the barrel tipped open and the upper "thingie" rotated out of axis, in the middle of the rotating "thingie" there's a semicircular "whatchamacallit" that doesn't rotate. I think that's the rear sight.
The semi-circular whatchamacallit just doesn't look like much , if any , of a rear sight.
Can the OP post some more photo's ..... I would like to see more of this bad boy....it's verrrry interesting !
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Old November 9, 2018, 07:02 PM   #29
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The semi-circular object does not rotate with the "latch". At the front of the circle is a notch that functions as the rear sight notch.

Basically it's a pretty conventional rear sight with the exception of being semi-circular with a notch instead of flat-faced with a notch. I would like to shoot it to see how it works in different lighting.
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Old November 10, 2018, 01:30 PM   #30
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OK, he sent me some more pictures. While the gun is in real good condition, there is just a little bit of bluing wear on the front hinge and the back ring. Also the hex screws on the bottom show some usage marks. Still since he acquired in the late sixties, sure looks good for being over 50 years old.

Is it worth offering $500 for it? Never bought a gun I couldn't find a price for.




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Old November 10, 2018, 02:31 PM   #31
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Here's a general rule of thumb for unique purchases where determining a price is difficult due to scarcity of the item in question.

Assuming it will do what the buyer wants it to do and it has been fairly represented to the buyer, then the fair price is whatever the buyer is willing to pay.

It's not like you can buy one elsewhere cheaper.

If you want it and the facts point to it being suitable for your purposes, then you decide what the fair price is.
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Old November 10, 2018, 04:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Here's a general rule of thumb for unique purchases where determining a price is difficult due to scarcity of the item in question.

Assuming it will do what the buyer wants it to do and it has been fairly represented to the buyer, then the fair price is whatever the buyer is willing to pay.

It's not like you can buy one elsewhere cheaper.

If you want it and the facts point to it being suitable for your purposes, then you decide what the fair price is.
That about sums it up. Nobody here has ever seen one like it. It may very well be the only one in existence. You can't find a book value for it. You ask is it worth offering $500 for. Only you can answer that. If it's worth $500 to you and you can afford to pay $500 for it -- then it's worth offering $500.
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Old November 11, 2018, 09:33 AM   #33
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The hex head screws threw me until I learned the concept went back to the 1890's.
In 1910 , William Allen, owner of the Allen mfg. Co. , patented a way to cold form the heads to a hex die....this allowed mass production and wider use.
I had no idea hex heads dated back this far.....the gun could have been made in 1944 and the hex bolts only mean it was made after 1910.... The mystery continues.

I have no idea as to date of manufacture but wonder if some war time worker in a manufacturing...arms plant ( ? ) put it together on his spare time. Maybe he wanted a 22 pistol and none were available , so he made one .
It was made by someone with experience , access to the right tools and was blued properly...Bubba didn't do it !
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:03 PM   #34
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Hex screws were just not generally used on guns until the 1980s.
Micarta was developed early in the 20th century, too. It just wasn't used on guns and knives until much later.
The 1944 number is hand stamped-precluding factory manufacture.
My parents worked in wartime weapons manufacture during WW2. I can assure you there was no time available for personal projects.
The hex heads, hot bluing, unorthodox design point to late manufacture.
While the gun is well made, I doubt it is old.
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Old November 13, 2018, 08:43 AM   #35
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Hex screws were just not generally used on guns until the 1980s.
I have to agree as well, the gun simply was not made anytime near 1944. The hex screws are a give away and it's simply too refined for that time period.

The OP said it is a rim fire, but has he determined exactly what cartridge it fires. There are other rim fire cartridges other than .22LR.

If the number 1944 is a serial number, then the gun was made for resale. I think that the maker's name is somewhere on the firearm. Has the OP removed the grips? Judging from the wear on the grip hex screws, it looks like someone has.

As for whether the gun is worth $500, in my opinion, it's worth every bit of that. I'd bet in a gunbroker auction it would fetch north of $800. At Rock Island Auction, my guess is that it would fetch at least $1,500.
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Old November 13, 2018, 09:55 AM   #36
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Ok, so I did a little more digging around on the possible maker of this gun. I think it's possible that it was built by Josef Elsener. Here is a link to a pistol that was sold at auction: https://joesalter.ca/products/one-of...n-built-pistol. You can see the pictures in the link. The following is quoted from the description of that gun:

"This pistol was designed and built by the Late Josef Elsener, a Swiss National who immigrated to Canada and established a small machine shop in Montreal. As an avid collector and shooter he built various firearms from scratch. He was also an inventor who designed and built a type of water cannon for bomb desposal that became very popular. Many years ago we purchased his collection including the pistol as described. This is a single shot 22 caliber pistol with an integral receiver and barrel unit. Depressing the lever at the front of the trigger guard permits the unit to slide forward for access and loading .The barrel resembles the Swiss Luger with a crafted sight base. The receiver shows 19 grooves and a unique hand made sliding rear sight similar to some very early European early auto pistols. The rear of the frame shows two extractors and the exterior hammer that is manually cocked. The frame is solid steel with the interior milled out. The front strap was milled with finger grooves. The grips are wood covered with a rubber neopream material. This pistol is a unique one of a kind piece designed and built by an unique Canadian."

Mr. Elsener and his wife, Leslie Rust were partners in a Canadian company known as "Proparms". https://proparms.com/about/

The question I have is that if this is a pistol made by Mr. Elsener in Canada, how did it get into the US without any import marks???

Last edited by Skans; November 13, 2018 at 10:11 AM.
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Old November 13, 2018, 11:29 AM   #37
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California legal assault revolver


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Old November 13, 2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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Other than being pistols with a grip, barrel, and frame- I see no resemblance to the Elsener. Elsener was a professional gunmaker, so he probably marked his work.
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Old November 13, 2018, 09:01 PM   #39
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Would you do us all a favor, and measure around the thing with a micrometer so we can maybe see whether it was machined on metric or inch standards?

If all else fails, maybe you could take it to a gunsmith or machinist and ask them to measure the threads on the screws. I may be wrong, but a machinist should be able to measure and determine if it was threaded in us or euro measurements.
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Old November 13, 2018, 09:10 PM   #40
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Great idea.
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Old November 13, 2018, 09:53 PM   #41
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Screws can be checked with thread guage & screw checker card. Cards can be had in plastic , US & metric. Thread guages, I don't know what they cost I got
mine in machinist tool box I bought a estate sale.

Can't help thinking barrel unit on this gun looks like it was copied from Reising
Bear Cat pistol made pre WW2.
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:13 AM   #42
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It's a home made gun. Not old.
Damn you have good eyes. Didn't notice the screws until I read your post
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Old November 15, 2018, 02:42 PM   #43
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The question I have is that if this is a pistol made by Mr. Elsener in Canada, how did it get into the US without any import marks???
It could be possible if the gun were imported prior to the enaction of the 1968 GCA which mandated import markings.

That said, the described pistol sounds nothing like the one you have other than that both are single shot .22LR. Even the rifling is quite different.
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:50 PM   #44
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The pistol in question actually looks more refined than the Elsener pistols. Bill is right, if it was an Elsener pistol, it would have an indication of that somewhere on it.
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Old November 15, 2018, 11:56 PM   #45
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Some may find this shocking but, there are thousands of individuals out there that could build something like this.
While building a gun takes skill and tools- it's not rocket surgery.
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Old November 16, 2018, 07:00 AM   #46
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Per a forum member's suggestion I sent the gun photo's to these guys:
https://royalarmouries.org/
... in hopes that they might be able to shed some light.
Haven't got a response yet.
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Old November 16, 2018, 07:42 AM   #47
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That one example of Mr. Elsener's work shows some definite design characteristics that hint of both Luger and Mauser DNA -- not surprising, since he was Swiss. The pistol that's the subject of this discussion doesn't (to me, anyway) seem to have any of those design cues. It's a much cleaner and, IMHO, more refined design.
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Old November 16, 2018, 01:55 PM   #48
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Allen head (hex) screws have been around since before World War I.
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Old November 16, 2018, 06:16 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Some may find this shocking but, there are thousands of individuals out there that could build something like this.
While building a gun takes skill and tools- it's not rocket surgery.
The Louisiana State Penitentiary , known as Angola Prison , has a small museum with a display of single shot guns made by and used by inmates . It amazes me what can be made with little materials, tools or equipment . These guys are in a maximum security prison...the worst go here and are watched carefully ....still they manage to construct a weapon they can shoot another inmate with. There is a single barrel shotgun with a pipe butt stock and 30 inch barrel .... amazing how simply a gun can be made .

I remember buying plans back in 1965 to make a single shot 22 with nothing but hand tools ...you did need a section of 22 rifled barrel ...but everything else was hand filed from sheet metal and flat or bar stock . I never made one because I never came across any old section 22 barrel ...but I could have done it ...it wasn't that hard.
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Old November 17, 2018, 11:00 AM   #50
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Some may find this shocking but, there are thousands of individuals out there that could build something like this.
While building a gun takes skill and tools- it's not rocket surgery.
While many people with some technical skills, tools and materials could put together a useable firearm, It's not so easy to create an actually useful piece, especially one that looks so darned good. I made a matchlock with a few nails, a pipe and cap, hand drill and soldering iron. I actually shot the stupid thing a few times with black powder and shot. I designed a 'grenade launcher and made it, the bomb was going to be empty CO2 cartridges and just cannon fuse glued into a short aluminum tube. that folded back into the launching charge.

No, I never fired an unlicensed explosive device from my shoulder. It is amazing, however, what a thirteen year old kid can do when he's bored and he has some ridiculously simple things to work with.
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