bbl constricted after peening 1911 frame

[jpsshack]

Hey 'Smiths,
Recently peened the rails on my SA 1911 to try to make a
Bullseye gun. It's my second go at this, the first with an RIA went fine. The Springer has better steel and tighter tolerances, though, and now the gun won't go in or out of battery. The barrel appears to be binding in the chamber area forward of the hood, and possibly I need a lower link. Anyone encounter this before, and any suggestions?
-jp

[Goatwhiskers]

Someone with more experience than I will be along shortly, but I do know that peening the rails draws the slide down closer to the frame. A shorter link may well be in order. Tons of fun and fitting when you start to accurize the beast. GW

[jpsshack]

Thanks, I'll hang around...

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

It could be the barrel lugs bottoming out in the recesses in the slide. It's according to how deep they were cut, and how high the lugs are on top of the barrel.

The 1911's link does not come to a stop, when the link and pin is at top dead center. It actually passes this, as the slide goes forward, and stops a few degrees past TDC. This pendulum movement, causes the lugs to go up into the slide recesses, as the slide starts to travel back, then they start to become disengaged, until the same angle is reached in the reverse, and the length of this movement, is the breech locking delay of the pistol. It is the reverse, when the slide closes, in that when the link is at TDC, the lugs will be forced up into the slide recesses, as far as they can go, before they come back out a slight amount, where the slide finally stops fully forward.

The only cure, if those tolerances are really close, as far as the lugs bottoming out, is to use a link, that has the holes a couple of thousandths closer together, than does the old one, or relieve the lugs by a slight amount, or deepen the recesses.

[jpsshack]

Thanks guys. I appreciate that description of the barrel travel in operation. One thing I didn't mention – the gun will not cycle even with the slide stop out. This suggests to me that the barrel is hanging up independent of the link, perhaps even independent of the lugs. I can get it into battery with just the barrel, slide and frame – no spring, guide rod or bushing involved. It won't cycle in or out of battery, however. Perhaps I'll try some light sanding of the barrel in the lug and chamber area to start, then think about the link. Sound feasible?

[dahermit]

Perhaps I'll try some light sanding of the barrel in the lug and chamber area to start, then think about the link. Sound feasible?

If it were mine, before I did any releiving of the metal, I would coat everything with machinists' lay-out dye and work the action (as far as it will go), to see where the dye is being worn off.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

What to do, is use either lamp black, or Prussian Blue, to see where it's rubbing at. You can get the blue in an aerosol from Dykem, and I think, a few others, or just buy it in a tube, or bottle, and apply it with a Q-Tip to the barrel. Anywhere it rubs, it will take off the blue, or lamp black. The blue, when dry, is tougher to wipe off than the black, but it will easily come off, to show the rubbing.

If you have an old oil lantern, or alcohol lamp, that's all you need to get the soot, or lamp black, just makes sure to not wipe it off before you get it together enough to see where it rubs.

[g.willikers]

How about using some valve grinding paste and run the slide back and forth until it's like you want?

[RickB]

The barrel fits in the slide properly with the slide off the frame?
If the barrel won't go into battery with no link, it's not going to go into battery with a short link.
With the barrel completely linked down, resting on the barrel bed (is it resting on the barrel bed?), will the slide pass over it? That is, the binding is not a matter of the barrel not fitting between the frame and slide?
The link isn't holding the barrel off the barrel bed?

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

It could possibly hit in the yoke of the recoil spring guide, at the top, since the barrel would be pushed down just a shade farther. It wouldn't hurt it, to relieve it a little, and retry it. I have it marked with a red circle, where to look for the interference at.

Also, you'll see how the link if forward, past top dead center, so you can figure how those lugs go up, when the link swings back and forward, and the link passes TDC.

1911-examp by matneyw, on Flickr

[jpsshack]

First of all, thank you all so much for coming to the aid of a fellow gunny!

The barrel fits in the slide properly with the slide off the frame?

Yes

With the barrel completely linked down, resting on the barrel bed (is it resting on the barrel bed?), will the slide pass over it?

Yes, it's resting on the barrel bed. No, the slide will not pass over it. That's where the binding is happening.

The link isn't holding the barrel off the barrel bed?

No, it appears to be resting nicely on the bed.


I do have some Dykem blue–Dixie, thanks for the images and insight. the binding happens without the guide rod installed, though the yoke of said guide may be exacerbating things. Willikers, the slide to frame fit is fine, it's an issue with the barrel. Or do you mean put the lapping compound directly on the barrel?

re. The photos: the first one shows the barrel resting comfortably on its bed, the second shows it fit nicely in the slide. it will sit just as nicely in battery with slide on the frame. the third shot shows where the barrel begins to bind in the cycling of the action.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

If the barrel is binding on the slide, before it can close, when the slide is going forward, that means that the barrel is up in the air, at the rear, and off the frame, unless the link has went past top dead center the last few thousandths of an inch, where the barrels seats itself against the frame, and the forward motion stops, but here, the lugs should actually be pulling out of the slide recesses a small amount, and away from the top of the slide. In the drawing, you can see the gap, when its closed, between the barrel and slide, but that may be exaggerated a bit, in the amount, as it's according to the gun on how much. For the barrel to be able to hit the underneath of the slide, and bind, it would happen at the highest point of the links swing, as on either side of top dead center, the rear of the barrel drops down.

When the slides ways, on the frame, are peened, so there is hardly no vertical movement, the slide will come down against the frame, maybe 0.001"-0.002", as any more, and the slide ways would bind up. If the slide has a close tolerance, between it and the barrel, then it could bind, when the link gets to TDC, as that would be the barrels highest point. If it is, the slide would lack closing by about 1/8" or so.

That is about all I could think of, without actually looking at the parts, after Dykem has been rubbed off, from the binding.

[jpsshack]

gettin' there with the Dykem Blue.I'll let you know the outcome.
As was said earlier–all kinds of fun when you start messin' with the beast!

[g.willikers]

If the slide to frame fit is ok, then forget about using lapping compound.
Only use it if the rails are too tight from the peening.
Since it's not the problem, Never mind.
Besides, it's just an emergency method when the proper tools aren't available.

[RickB]

The third pic shows the slide binding on the barrel with the barrel completely linked down; nothing changes if a link is installed or not; we know that the link is not holding the barrel off the frame?
If the barrel will not physically fit between the frame and slide, you're going to have to lower the barrel bed to create a static gap between the slide and barrel. You can't have link-up or link-down if there's no gap between the top of the barrel and the slide when the barrel is resting on the frame.
Are you familiar with Schuemann barrel fit tests? Some swear by it, and some swear that there's no way for a within-spec gun to pass all of the tests, but it does provide some insights into where to look if things aren't fitting.

[Unclenick]

Jpsshack,

I've become unclear about what is and is not in place. Put the frame in soft jaws in a vice, then assemble the barrel, slide and bushing (important to keeping the engagement angles correct) and push them onto the frame with the barrel tilted up into engagement with the locking lugs. No other parts at all. You and use a length of 3.8" dowel in the muzzle of the barrel as a handle for keeping the barrel up in locked position. Once in place, if you now push down on the barrel through the ejection port while pulling up on the slide with your other hand, are you unable to move the slide back over the barrel?

[polyphemus]

If the barrel will not physically fit between the frame and slide

It could be that the frame rails have been been excessively distorted,machining
the frame to provide clearance would also change the feed ramp dimensions and the pistol may have geometry issues and subsequent failures.

[jpsshack]

Thanks for all your suggestions.
Using Dykem blue, I was able to locate the spots that were binding in the chamber area on the top of the barrel. I removed them with 320 sandpaper, and the gun is now cycling quite well. All that it's doing at this point is a slight hiccup right before and right after battery-in other words it locks up incredibly tight but it's a little hard going in and going out. I'm not comfortable shooting the gun yet, not until I have a nice smooth action. At this point I'm wondering whether I need to file a bit off of the bottom barrel lugs to bring things down a little at battery. My thinking is that lowering the rails just made an already tight gun a little too tight. I will check out the Schuemann tests, thanks for the tip. I can see how lowering the bed would accomplish the same thing (as removing material from the barrel), though I would rather avoid that if at all possible. Thanks, though. I'm still listening, you guys are great.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

It could be the lugs bottoming out in the slide recesses, or the slide bottoming out between the lugs, in the grooves, on the barrel. You might have to relive both the lugs and grooves between them. I would not think it would be more than 0.001"-0,002" at the most.

Did the blue show the lugs bottoming out in the slide? If they're not, it may just be in the barrels grooves, so that would be all I would relieve. You want to keep the bite of the lugs, in the recesses, as high as you can get them, without it binding.

[jpsshack]

Thanks very much. I'll blue the lug area and see what it tells me, then relieve as needed.

[Sevens]

Very interesting mechanics here! Subscribing as I have a new barrel en route and I'm not sure what my chance is at getting it to work for me.

OP, I hope you put up some "final results" pictures eventually, including impressive targets!

[jpsshack]

Will do.

[polyphemus]

I'm wondering whether I need to file a bit off of the bottom barrel lugs to bring things down a little at battery

Cuting the bottom lug will bring the barrel down some but it will also shift the
slide travel forward,the thing to be careful with here is the thumb safety's engagement recess,your best bet may be to relieve the barrel ribs profile.

[Don P]

Hey 'Smiths,
Recently peened the rails on my SA 1911 to try to make a
Bullseye gun. It's my second go at this, the first with an RIA went fine. The Springer has better steel and tighter tolerances, though, and now the gun won't go in or out of battery. The barrel appears to be binding in the chamber area forward of the hood, and possibly I need a lower link. Anyone encounter this before, and any suggestions?
-jp

If it taint broke don't fix it!!! I have to ask, are you that accomplished of a shooter that all this work is going to be noticeable in your scores??

[polyphemus]

OP seems to have previous experience hammering down frame rails.

It's my second go at this, the first with an RIA went fine

He just ran into a little snag with this project and needs a little guidance.