BP replacement

[RickB]

Are there any modern, smokeless replacements for black powder that can be loaded on standard presses, and are not volume equivalents?

It would be nice to load 6-8 grains of powder, normal bullet lube, easy clean-up, and not risk blowing-up my 1st generation Frontier Six Shooter; asking too much?

Even if a powder were a volume equivalent, if it burned clean, was easy to clean-up, and could be loaded on a standard press, I could live with it.
I usually load 4-5 grains for pistol loads, so filling the case for each shot isn't ideal, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

APP powder seems to be the closest to what I'm looking for, so far.

[Oliver Sudden]

Trailboss is made just for this, load data is out there for most any black powder cartridge.

[Jim Watson]

What do you mean by "standard presses"?
I load real black on my Rockchucker.
Or do you want to load progressive?

APP is a volumetric replacement, they say 21 grains Avdp for .44 WCF but also say full to light compression. They also say any press.

If you want to load 6-8 grains, you are talking about Trail Boss or Tin Star.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Trailboss is made just for this, load data is out there for most any black powder cartridge.

I hear this all the time and it is incorrect.

Trailboss is not made for this. Trailboss is not a Black Powder substitute. It is a Smokeless powder specifically formulated to take up more space than most Smokeless powders. Trailboss is a fast burning Smokeless powder and generates much higher pressure than Black Powder.

Trailboss, as the name implies, was created for Cowboy Action Shooting. Many CAS shooters attempt to load traditional cartridges such as 45 Colt with very light recoil. In doing so, when using traditional Smokeless pistol powders the light loads they created used very small charges of powder. Big, cavernous cases such as 45 Colt do not do well when loaded with a lot of air space inside, it leads to inconsistent ignition and inconsistent velocities. Trailboss has very large, fluffy, donut shaped grains. When loaded properly in large capacity cases they fill up enough of the space to ignite consistently and provide consistent velocity.






Notice how large and fluffy the grains are compared to Unique.





Now..............

Having said all that, I have to ask the OP just how old his 1st Gen Colt is. Colt factory warranteed the Single Action Army for Smokeless powder in 1900. Shortly after that they began marking VP in an upside down triangle on the front left side of the trigger guard. VP stood for Verified Proof and it signified that the steel in the cylinders of those revolvers was strong enough for the pressures generated by Smokeless powder.

This is the Verified Proof marking on a 2nd Gen SAA that shipped in 1973.






This is the Verified Proof marking on a 1st Gen Bisley Colt that shipped in 1909.




Made before 1900? I absolutely would not use Trailboss or any other Smokeless powder in it. I would be comfortable using American Pioneer Powder, which is a true Black Powder substitute, and it does not require special soft bullet lube as real Black Powder does.

Despite what you have probably been hearing for years, Black Powder and BP substitutes do not have to be loaded by volume. It is easy to do a conversion to grains. You just pour out the proper amount of BP, and weigh it. What could be simpler? The proper amount of real BP in any cartridge is that amount that will be slightly compressed by about 1/16" to 1/8" when the bullet is seated. You figure that out and weigh it. What could be simpler? I will caution you though, not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. So using the above procedure you have to be sure you are always using the same brand and granulation of powder. If you change brands or granulation, just do it again.

I have been loading real Black Powder on my progressive Hornady Lock and Load press for years. I use a special Black Powder measure that will not generate sparks, but I have been doing it for years.

if it burned clean, was easy to clean-up,

Good luck with that. Clean burning does not come along with any Black Powder substitute.

But cleaning up after Black Powder is a lot easier than most think. Despite what you have probably been hearing for years, it does not have to be done immediately or the gun will turn into a pile of rust. Corrosive primers coupled with Black Powder were bad news and caused corrosion quickly. Modern primers are not corrosive and Black Powder fouling itself is far less corrosive than most think. I am not going to tell you how long my guns sometimes sit before being cleaned of BP fouling, but they never get cleaned immediately.

And believe it or not, I use less elbow grease cleaning up after shooting BP than I do using Hoppes #9 after shooting Smokeless. Messy? Yes. Difficult? No.

[jaguarxk120]

Generally hot water and Dawn detergent will clean any black powder
gun and the spent case's.

And if it is along hot sweaty day - take your cleaning brushes and gun in the shower
with you.

[Oliver Sudden]

Driftwood's info is what I would listen to as he's more of a student of Colts then I am. How ever, Colt began making cylinders suited to smokeless in 1896 at about 163000 serial # the 45 Colt and the 44/40 first. Since the OP said Frontier Six Shooter that implies 44/40 calibre. The full change to smokeless was in1900 but the VP didn't start till 1901.
As to loads he asked about 6 to 8 grain loads and are not volume equivalents. Hodgden data is 6.5 grains under a 200 grain bullet is the listed load.

[RickB]

My Colt is sort of like the axe in the museum that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree; the handle was replaced twice, and the blade once, but it occupies the same space as the original.

My gun's serial indicates it was made in 1897, but it was rebuilt on a new frame in the '50s, the barrel replaced in the '70s, but the cylinder is from 1897.

My main complaint with BP is the residue; removing the cylinder and cleaning, every twelve rounds is a pain, even if I have to do it only once or twice a year.

The comment about "regular" press is related to recommendations against loading BP in an iron press, which can accumulate static electricity and spark.

Sounds like APP is the right track, even if I have to load 20 grains of it.

[Jim Watson]

New frame and barrel? I'd get it a new cylinder and not worry about babying it.

The comment about "regular" press is related to recommendations against loading BP in an iron press, which can accumulate static electricity and spark..

I never heard that one before.
In the first place, iron is conductive and will not "accumulate static electricity."
I put a metal hopper on my powder measure to avoid "static cling," not because I feared a spark.
In the second place, there are a good number of BPCR and CAS shooters loading on iron framed presses with no explosions reported.

[44 Dave]

Another consideration is the bore size, .44 WCF has a lot of variation. Would not shoot jacketed bullets and if you use the min. size of .427 pressures will not be as high as the .429 I am shooting.

[Hawg]

The comment about "regular" press is related to recommendations against loading BP in an iron press, which can accumulate static electricity and spark.

Static electricity won't set off black powder. It takes heat to set it off.

[Hellgate]

I run Hodgden's 777 through my Dillon Square Deal B all the time. I load .357 mag with 15gr (probably 22 gr volume) and cleanup is easy with about 2 wet patches then a dry one and oil the bore. Easy peasy.

[pwc]

Take your BP substitite, use the load as per instructions, but dump on your scale and read the grain weight for the approved volume of powder. Use your BP dispenser to drop that weight in the case.....


If you use a powder balance (not a scale), put the load in the pan, and adjust the balance for zero. Any BP sub dumped on the balance pan will equal the approved load.

You should do this every powder lot change/change from one BP sub to another.

Black powder substitute, is NOT modern smokeless.

[44caliberkid]

APP works with regular smokeless lubes. The "load" would be whatever it takes to fill the case up to about 1/8th to 3/16ths from the mouth, the seated bullet providing light compression. APP leaves a light residue that cleans off with water. I'm a real BP fan, but APP would be my second choice.

[FrontierGander]

Please dont be like this idiot and many others that have followed the same fate.
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/muzzl...jarUhARZvju0MA

If you want to shoot smokeless powder, stick with centerfire, muzzleloaders that are BUILT for smokeless.

If your whole idea of shooting smokeless powder is because you dont like the clean up or the smell.... Well, you are in the wrong category.

[44 Dave]

Getting a little off subject? RickB only asked if his Colt SAA built in 1897 would handle light loads of smokeless powder!
"Cowboy loads" are a lot lighter than the full original black powder loads.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 Dave

"Cowboy loads" are a lot lighter than the full original black powder loads.

It has always been my understanding that commercial "cowboy" loads were intended to to match the original, black powder loads, not that they are a lot lighter.

[Jim Watson]

No, "Cowboy" loads are lighter than "service" loads whether black or smokeless, intended to reduce recoil for tenderfoot hobbyists.

[Driftwood Johnson]

How ever, Colt began making cylinders suited to smokeless in 1896 at about 163000 serial # the 45 Colt and the 44/40 first.

With all due respect, that is incorrect. The 1896 date is often quoted because that is the time Colt began using the spring loaded cross latch to hold the cylinder pin in place, rather than the older angled screw. The frames with the angled screw are often referred to as 'Black Powder' frames, but the presence of the more modern latch does not necessarily indicate a cylinder and frame guaranteed by Colt to stand up to the pressures of Smokeless ammunition.

Colt used malleable iron for the cylinder and frame of the Single Action Army from 1873 up until approximately serial number 96,000 in mid 1883. From that time up until about serial number 180,000, mid 1898, cylinders and frames were made of transitional low/medium carbon type steels. After mid 1898 they began using medium carbon steels for frames and cylinders. Later versions of this material were heat treated. By 1900 Colt improved the heat treatment of these steels so that in 1900 they felt confident factory guaranteeing the frames and cylinder for standard factory load Smokeless powder cartridges. 1st Gen 357 Magnum cylinders (1935) were made from fine grain, higher tensile strength ordnance quality steel.

This information is from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers, a Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2.

My gun's serial indicates it was made in 1897, but it was rebuilt on a new frame in the '50s, the barrel replaced in the '70s, but the cylinder is from 1897.

My main complaint with BP is the residue; removing the cylinder and cleaning, every twelve rounds is a pain, even if I have to do it only once or twice a year.

Rick B: if your cylinder was made in 1897, according to what I have already said, it was not guaranteed by Colt to be safe to shoot with Smokeless powder. However I can almost guarantee you that at some time in the past it was fired with Smokeless powder, as have many of the older Colts. Still, if it was mine I would not risk it. I load and shoot Black Powder cartridges all the time.

Regarding having to clean the residue after only twelve rounds, I would venture to guess you are using standard hard cast bullets with modern hard wax lube. Generally speaking, Black Powder fouling forms a hard, difficult to remove fouling if used with modern bullet lubes. Bullet lubes for Black Powder used to be, and still are, soft and gooey. When a proper Black Powder compatible bullet lube is used with Black Powder, the fouling stays soft and gooey. Each succeeding bullet brushes the soft fouling left behind in the bore by the last bullet ahead of it and out of the barrel, leaving behind more soft fouling for the next bullet to clean out. And the fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap remains soft and gooey too. The main reason a revolver fired with Black Powder binds up is because hard fouling blasted out of the b/c gap directly onto the cylinder pin binds up the cylinder, preventing it from rotating smoothly. Using the proper bullet lube solves these problems. There are a zillion recipes for Black Powder bullet lube, I used to mix up a brew of 1/2 beeswax and 1/2 Crisco. I would melt the hard wax lube out of standard hard cast bullets and pan lube them with my beeswax/Crisco concoction. Yes, it was a lot of work. Later I discovered Big Lube bullets which I still use. They have huge lube grooves filled with SPG or some other soft BP compatible bullet lube.

Yes, all of this is extra work.

Or, you could just use APP which works well with modern bullets with modern bullet lube.

Sorry, clean up with APP is still messy, but you don't need bullets with special BP compatible bullet lube.

[Driftwood Johnson]

"Cowboy loads" are a lot lighter than the full original black powder loads.

Cowboy loads are still Smokeless powder loads. Smokeless powder, even in light loads creates a very different pressure curve than Black Powder. It is not just the amount of peak pressure that counts, it is also how the pressure gets spread out over time. Most Smokeless powders, including Trailboss and most powders used for 'cowboy' ammunition have a sharp pressure spike that can shatter the older steel used in pre-1900 Colts. There are a few slower powders that can duplicate the pressure curve of Black Powder, but they are not commonly found in off the shelf revolver ammunition.

Sorry, don't ask me which powders because I don't know. I argue with a guy over on the S&W forum about this all the time, he knows. But he also has sophisticated pressure measuring equipment to measure the pressure curve of his ammunition. I don't have such equipment, so I don't mess with trying to tailor Smokeless loads for my antique Colts.

[44 Dave]

When Colt designed the '73 SAA they added a cylinder bushing that deflects the cylinder/barrel flash and the fouling. These are not like the Remington New Model Army that foul out fast and the open top cap and ball pistols.
Listen to Driftwood, he talked me into the Big Lube bullets and I can shoot all day.

[Scorch]

I have been loading American Pioneer 3F in my 32-20 Stevens 44 and my Winchester 1885 High Wall in 40-70 WCF for about 3-4 years now. It is accurate, brass extracts easily, and it smokes but it doesn't foul like BP, so I can keep shooting longer. Not quite the same as black, but much more forgiving. I load it just like black powder, overpowder fiber wad and wax lubed bullets.

I tried Triple 7 and Pyrodex, but the hangfires and nasty fouling made me give up on them, and I went back to black. Then about 3-4 years ago I couldn't find black powder and decided to try American Pioneer. It works for me.

[Hawg]

I tried Triple 7 and Pyrodex, but the hangfires and nasty fouling made me give up on them

I've never had a hang fire with Pyrodex in a cartridge and the fouling is no worse than black. The only thing I ever had a hang fire with was a 63 Sharps but look at the long curvy fire channel it has.

[44caliberkid]

Driftwood knows his stuff on antiques and black powder. Ill reiterate what he said about Cowboy loads. Duplicating black powder velocities with smokeless is not the same as duplicating black powder pressures. Other gunwriters such as Mike Venturino and John Taffin will also warn you off shooting smokeless in antique Colts.
When I was seriously into Cowboy shooting, I did black powder class with Big Lube bullets and real BP. I was in a number of 2 or 3 day matches (Nationals or Regionals) firing 5 stages a day. I just wiped the soot and grease off with a paper towel at the end of each day and didn't clean them till I went home. The cylinders turned freely and the guns shot dead nuts accurate over 200 - 300 rounds.

[Jim Watson]

Smokeless powder, even in light loads creates a very different pressure curve than Black Powder. It is not just the amount of peak pressure that counts, it is also how the pressure gets spread out over time. Most Smokeless powders, including Trailboss and most powders used for 'cowboy' ammunition have a sharp pressure spike that can shatter the older steel used in pre-1900 Colts.

I read and hear this frequently.
Are these "pressure curves" published anywhere for the ordinary shooter?

[ligonierbill]

Another substitute is Alliant Black MZ. I have read that it is made by American Pioneer Powder, but I cannot verify that. I have used Black MZ extensively for Cowboy Action shooting, and yes, you can use bullets lubed for smokeless. At a typical match, I ran 35 rounds through each of my SAA clones and 70 rounds through my replica 1873 with no cleaning between stages. Cleanup is no problem. The biggest problem with shooting "on the dark side" is seeing the targets through the smoke. And Black MZ is cheap.

That said, I am loading more holy black in cartridge firearms. It smells worse, but cleanup is just something you do. And unless I've only put a few rounds through them, I clean my smokeless arms after each range session anyway.