The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 10, 2017, 07:22 PM   #176
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,693
Houston Police Department has done the same.

http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texa...reddit-desktop



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Chui is online now  
Old August 10, 2017, 08:21 PM   #177
Laz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 1999
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
Houston Police Department has done the same.
I just read the article. They did not "do the same". They warned officers and arranged with Sig to repair or replace existing weapons. Where does it say they did the same as Dallas?

This stuff is getting just a wee bit feverish.
__________________
Laz

“And yet, he threw the seed anyway. He reached deep into the bag and threw the seed all over the place because he knew some of it would grow.”
Laz is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 08:41 PM   #178
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 6,930
Quote:
Believing the M17 trials would have revealed the issue suggests the Army allowed Sig to correct a grievous safety defect in its submission.
The M17 is advertised as having a "reduced mass trigger" in the military configuration. If they didn't make that during or after the trials, then they did it a long time ago. Maybe SIG will clarify when that change was made for the M17.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:10 PM   #179
Independent George
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2013
Posts: 577
I assume that part of the discovery process in the CT lawsuit is going to involve the emails detailing the design changes for the M17. There is zero chance they made all those changes without discussing the reasons for them at length.

I am personally very incredulous that those changes just happened to precisely fix the defect that caused the discharge.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Independent George is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:16 PM   #180
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
The M17 is advertised as having a "reduced mass trigger" in the military configuration. If they didn't make that during or after the trials, then they did it a long time ago. Maybe SIG will clarify when that change was made for the M17.
As previously reported by Soldier Systems (emphasis added):

Quote:
While the MHS passed DoD’s TOP 3-2-045 test with the trigger currently in the commercial P320, SIG proposed an enhanced trigger via Engineering Change Request E0005.
gc70 is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:25 PM   #181
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 7,986
^ yea we pointed that out earlier. As I said then when that change request was made is what I want to know.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness
TunnelRat is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:32 PM   #182
pblanc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Does anyone have a link to a story on the Connecticut officer being shot?
http://www.guns.com/2017/08/09/sig-s...uit-over-p320/

http://www.ctlawtribune.com/id=12027...e=0&curindex=0

http://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_bc...kwQ243TWs/view

To view the second link is free, but you will have to give an email address and sign up for an account with the Connecticut Law Tribune.

The third link is a pdf file of the actual legal complaint served on SIG Sauer.
pblanc is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:32 PM   #183
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
^ yea we pointed that out earlier. As I said then when that change request was made is what I want to know.
The Soldier Systems article answers BR's question about whether the M17 trials revealed the issue.
gc70 is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 09:34 PM   #184
pblanc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 372
Houston PD got SIG to agree to replace their pistols, not repair them. And they are going to consider other service pistols than the P320 or in addition to the P320.

They also did their own drop testing with P320s and found they drop-fired just over 10% of the time.
pblanc is offline  
Old August 10, 2017, 10:25 PM   #185
Doc Holliday 1950
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2014
Location: Bout as south as it gets
Posts: 994
Today's article in the Wall Street Journal came out with a follow up on this stating that Smith & Wesson & Ruger would greatly have an selling advantage because of Sig's misfortune. "You're only as good as your last act" my saying not The WSJ.
__________________
Shoot well and be Accurate,

Doc
Doc Holliday 1950 is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 09:18 AM   #186
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 6,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc70
The Soldier Systems article answers BR's question about whether the M17 trials revealed the issue.
Not to get all pedantic and lawyery with you; but that article reveals the P320 passed the TOPS 3-2-045 test with the commercial trigger (see page 53 for rough handling testing). I'm by no means knowledgable of DoD procurement; but as the summary page for 3-2-045 notes, safety evaluations of hand and shoulder weapons are conducted under TOPS 3-2-504.

So, not being knowledgable of DoD procurement, that sounds like it would be possible for the commercial trigger to pass 3-2-045 and then fail 3-2-504.* And it does show that the Arrmy did approve a change to the M17 trigger, and the change was away from the one with the identified safety issue.

*ETA: A quick look at the 1977 version of that doc suggests that is unlikely given the testing being done doesn't appear to have any drop testing; but my general point that passing one set of formalized procedures isn't the same as passing the entire trial process remains.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; August 11, 2017 at 09:24 AM.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 11:00 AM   #187
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Not to get all pedantic and lawyery with you; but that article reveals the P320 passed the TOPS 3-2-045 test with the commercial trigger (see page 53 for rough handling testing).
Page 54 of TOPS 3-2-045 describes the drop test. While not dropped at a 30° angle, the test does include drops at 45°.
Quote:
b. 1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.
  1. Use three serviceable weapons for this test. Load each weapon with a primed but otherwise empty cartridge case to assess the possibility of accidental firing. Place the safety switch in the Safe position.
  2. Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:
    1. Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).
    2. Major axis vertical, butt down.
    3. Major axis vertical, muzzle down.
    4. Major axis 45° from vertical, butt down.
    5. Major axis 45° from vertical, muzzle down.
  3. Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface. They may be dropped by a mechanical means or by manually releasing them in the required orientation. Verify the proper impact orientation by video recording (preferred), or by careful visual observation, or photographic records.
  4. Inspect the weapons after each drop. Ascertain the position of the safety switch and check to see if the primed cartridge case has fired. Record all damages and all maintenance required. Conduct a firing test if the serviceability of the weapons is questionable.
gc70 is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 12:27 PM   #188
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 6,930
Yes, I read it before I linked it here. I don't think it is unreasonable to say the P320 could pass that test without SIG being aware that a P320 with no manual safety may fire when dropped at a 30 degree angle. But passing that test isn't the entirety of the process.

ETA: I think you are correct SIG didn't discover it through the M17 trials though. Not sure how the M17 manual safety works; but if it locks the trigger bar, then there is no way for this failure (inertia pulling trigger) to happen regardless of the angle.

I'm still skeptical that SIG's engineering change was some happy coincidence that also fixed this problem though.

ETA2: Well, nevermind. Looks like inertia pulling the trigger is NOT the cause of failure: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...no-plans-test/

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; August 11, 2017 at 12:57 PM.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 02:11 PM   #189
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,702
The M17 testing with a manual safety engaged certainly provides no information about the drop-safety of a P320 without a manual safety. However, the information about the Army's testing should help dispel suspicions that the Army engaged in fraud and conspiracy to award Sig a contract for a gun with a serious known defect.
gc70 is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 02:27 PM   #190
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
ETA2: Well, nevermind. Looks like inertia pulling the trigger is NOT the cause of failure: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...no-plans-test/
Dropping a gun on a hard surface and hitting a gun with a hard object both involve inertia.

In a drop, both the gun and trigger are initially moving; when the gun is stopped, the trigger tries to continue to move.

In a hit, both the gun and trigger are initially at rest; when the gun is moved, the trigger tries to remain at rest.

In both cases, inertia will try to move the trigger in relation to the rest of the gun.
gc70 is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 04:50 PM   #191
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 6,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc70
However, the information about the Army's testing should help dispel suspicions that the Army engaged in fraud and conspiracy to award Sig a contract for a gun with a serious known defect.
It is neither fraud nor conspiracy to award a contract to a pistol that meets the contract specifications. And a pistol that discharges at 30 degrees but not at 45 degrees meets those specifications. Although, I'm sure the Army's contract allows them discretion in considering those issues. It certainly wouldn't be the first nor the last time a product with serious deficiencies survived the procurement process without any criminal allegations.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 07:33 PM   #192
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 9,833
Quote:
2. Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:
1. Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).
2. Major axis vertical, butt down.
3. Major axis vertical, muzzle down.
4. Major axis 45° from vertical, butt down.
5. Major axis 45° from vertical, muzzle down.
But the orientation that creates the discharge is muzzle 30 degrees from vertical, with the butt UP. That entire orientation, irrespective of 30 degrees, 45 degrees, or 60 degrees, is not part of the test protocol.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 07:38 PM   #193
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 7,986
I watched the video. I'm not sure what you mean by butt up. The muzzle is up in the Omaha Outdoors video, so butt down.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness
TunnelRat is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 08:07 PM   #194
Sequins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2014
Posts: 295
Butt up discharges are concerning but not to the same degree. Muzzle up means lead is headed towards someone, muzzle down implies you have a damaged ego and possibly floor.
Sequins is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 09:08 PM   #195
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 9,833
Quote:
I watched the video. I'm not sure what you mean by butt up. The muzzle is up in the Omaha Outdoors video, so butt down.
I mean the gun itself is upside down -- slide below receiver. That's the only way it can land on the back end of the slide.

See 1:14 in the linked video, and again at 2:22 :
https://youtu.be/ch7si_VQsGA
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 11, 2017, 09:09 PM   #196
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 7,986
Okay you're describing it in a different way than I would. By the way I'd describe it I think the government test does test this orientation, but not the right angle.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness
TunnelRat is offline  
Old August 12, 2017, 08:45 AM   #197
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 3,834
I guess some people won't be happy until the firing mechanisms on pistols are so lawyered up you can't hit the broad side of a barn. You can not build an idiot proof firearm. What test will be good enough? Fire 250,000 rounds through it and after that, use an air chisel with a dead blow bit to hit the pistol 5000 different times from 1000 different angles?
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 12, 2017, 08:51 AM   #198
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 5,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
I guess some people won't be happy until the firing mechanisms on pistols are so lawyered up you can't hit the broad side of a barn. You can not build an idiot proof firearm. What test will be good enough? Fire 250,000 rounds through it and after that, use an air chisel with a dead blow bit to hit the pistol 5000 different times from 1000 different angles?
Sorry but that is not even close to what is happening here. Being drop safe even at a particular angle, 30 degrees on the butt, is not making a gun idiot proof. With todays tech and design capabilities this type of defect should not be present.
__________________
-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis
-Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
WVsig is offline  
Old August 12, 2017, 09:29 AM   #199
18DAI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 2,145
Maybe a lanyard loop on the grip frame with an attached wrist band would solve the whole "problem".
__________________
S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum. Everything you need in a revolver, and nothing you don't.
18DAI is offline  
Old August 12, 2017, 10:04 AM   #200
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 7,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
I guess some people won't be happy until the firing mechanisms on pistols are so lawyered up you can't hit the broad side of a barn. You can not build an idiot proof firearm. What test will be good enough? Fire 250,000 rounds through it and after that, use an air chisel with a dead blow bit to hit the pistol 5000 different times from 1000 different angles?


To echo WVsig, "Holy hyperbole Batman!" We're talking about making a feature that is already present on this pistol work when it doesn't. That's not remotely close to what you're saying. For that matter it's a feature that's been present on other pistols for literally decades.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; August 12, 2017 at 01:00 PM.
TunnelRat is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11740 seconds with 9 queries