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Old August 8, 2017, 10:59 AM   #101
TunnelRat
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Congrats to Dallas PD on figuring it out.
So here's where I'm not so sure. To my knowledge it wasn't so much Dallas PD. I think the Dallas PD story remains a bit fuzzy. What we do know for sure is that one of their officers contacted SIG Sauer regarding the wording for the P320 drop safety in the manual and while waiting for clarification put use of those pistols on a hold. Now there was rumor that an officer with the Dallas PD had experienced an unintended discharge when a pistol was dropped and that may have spurred that officer looking at the manual in the first place, but I'm not sure on that and I haven't seen that confirmed. Going further I had heard that after receiving clarification from SIG the P320s had been put back in service as the concerns were alleviated. However, all of this seems to have spurred OmahaOutdoors to conduct their own tests which led to the video and test explanation making the rounds now.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure we can give Dallas PD full credit for this. It almost seems like a case of chicken little saying the sky is falling, and the sky actually happened to be falling.

Quote:
Maybe I'm just naive but I assumed the industry tests were robust and conducted in good faith. It seems now that the tests are not very robust, and that at least in the case of Sig (but probably all of them) the purpose of the test is to cross a regulatory hurdle, not to ensure safety.
So I imagine that the tests are in fact conducted in good faith, if for no other reason than doing these tests helps give the manufacturers a degree of legal protection. The problem seems to be that the test matrix might not be complicated enough. I'm not sure if this was done out of efficiency, lack of due diligence, or frankly plain ignorance. Quite honestly if I saw a pistol pass a drop test when dropped both perpendicular to the floor and then parallel to the floor I'd be a bit surprised when it discharged at an angle. Then we're left with a question of, "Well what increment of angles do we need to cover?" Do we need to do every 30 degrees, 10 degrees, 5 degrees? What's reasonable and what's not? I don't have the answer.
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Old August 8, 2017, 11:40 AM   #102
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Soo...I should *stop* doing my show where I simultaneously juggle and dribble my pistols like they are basketballs?
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Old August 8, 2017, 12:16 PM   #103
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With all the "drop testing" issues, you would think the testing standards would be made more robust and thorough. Once the new standards are set, ALL pistols should be retested whether you previously passed or not.

Then we will see who is "closer' to be being drop-safe.
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Old August 8, 2017, 12:27 PM   #104
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@Sequins I know exactly what you're saying and It's crossed my mind as well.
That's why I'd love to see OO make this a regular series and test other guns.

Who knows how many other guns suffer this same sort of design problem.
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Old August 8, 2017, 01:25 PM   #105
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SIG has released a press release and details below. Voluntary upgrade to fix the drop safety issue for testing outside industry standards. Also the version made for the military already has the enhancements.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-p320-pistols/

Quote:
In response to a variety of reports of SIG SAUER P320 pistols discharging when dropped, the company announced that it “developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability and overall safety including drop performance.” SIG is offering these upgrades to all P320 owners.

The M17 pistol selected by the US Army as its new sidearm of choice is not covered by this offer, because it already has all of the following:

– Reduced-mass fire control components (trigger, sear, etc.)

– New sear housing (reduces sensation of “double click” during trigger pull)

– Trigger disconnect (disengages the trigger bar if the slide is not fully in battery)

To be clear, the version of the trigger that has passed myriad safety testing protocols and the one submitted for MHS testing is the version currently in commercially-available P320s. Upgrades were engineered subsequently, rolled into the M17s that are now shipping, and will appear as standard in commercial P320s in the future.

For owners of current, commercial P320s, SIG is offering voluntary upgrades. This does, indeed, greatly mitigate the specific drop safety vulnerability that has been identified. More details will come next week. For now…

Here’s SIG’s press release:

SIG SAUER Issues Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol

P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability.
Quote:
Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process.

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017.

The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade.

“SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.”
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Old August 8, 2017, 01:26 PM   #106
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SIG has issued a press release. They will be doing a voluntary upgrade. There will be 3 changes made to the guns and details will be available next Monday.

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-relea...e-p320-pistol/
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Old August 8, 2017, 01:41 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by presspics
SIG has issued a press release. They will be doing a voluntary upgrade. There will be 3 changes made to the guns and details will be available next Monday.

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-relea...e-p320-pistol/
I could not find a list of "3 changes" in the linked article.
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Old August 8, 2017, 01:44 PM   #108
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As already quoted by sigamrs228, this press release showed up in my inbox about an hour ago:

Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

PR Contact:
Jordan Hunter
SIG SAUER, Inc.
603-610-3293
[email protected]

SIG SAUER Issues Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol

P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards;
performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability.

Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process.

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017.

The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade.

“SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.”

For more information on SIG SAUER, please visit us at sigsauer.com.

Follow SIG SAUER on social media, including Facebook at facebook.com/sigsauerinc, Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sigsauerinc/, and YouTube at youtube.com/user/sigsauerinc.

SIG SAUER, Inc.

SIG SAUER, Inc. is The Complete Systems Provider™, leading the industry in American innovation, ingenuity, and manufacturing. SIG SAUER® brings a dedication to superior quality, ultimate reliability, and unmatched performance that has made it the brand of choice among many of the world’s elite military, government and law enforcement units as well as responsible citizens. SIG SAUER offers a full array of products to meet any mission parameter, including handguns, rifles, ammunition, electro-optics, suppressors, ASP (Advanced Sport Pellet) airguns and training. The largest member of a worldwide business group of firearms manufacturers that includes SIG SAUER GmbH & Co. KG in Germany and Swiss Arms AG in Switzerland, SIG SAUER is an ISO 9001: 2008 certified company with more than 1,600 employees. For more information on SIG SAUER, any of its products, or the SIG SAUER AcademySM, please visit on to sigsauer.com.

SIG SAUER
FIREARMS • AMMUNITION • ELECTRO-OPTICS • SUPPRESSORS • AIRGUNS • TRAINING


Terms and conditions: All trademarks, service marks, trade names, trade dress, product names and logos appearing in this email are the property of their respective owners. No trademark or service mark appearing in this email may be used without the prior written consent of the mark’s owner. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, as this email address is used only for sending information about special promotions or surveys. This mailbox is not monitored. If you need assistance or have questions regarding our products or services, please call (603)-610-3000, and we will be happy to assist you. Thank you.

SIG SAUER Inc.,
72 Pease Boulevard, Newington, NH 03801
(603) 610-3000
sigsauer.com
The crux of the issue is in the paragraph "As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017."

So what we know at the moment is that the "fix" consists of more than one change ... and we won't know what that means until August 14.


Also, "P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability." So they guns meet safety standards, but they aren't safe. Cool ...

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 8, 2017 at 01:49 PM.
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Old August 8, 2017, 02:03 PM   #109
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-p320-pistols/

In response to a variety of reports of SIG SAUER P320 pistols discharging when dropped, the company announced that it “developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability and overall safety including drop performance.” SIG is offering these upgrades to all P320 owners.

The M17 pistol selected by the US Army as its new sidearm of choice is not covered by this offer, because it already has all of the following:

– Reduced-mass fire control components (trigger, sear, etc.)

– New sear housing (reduces sensation of “double click” during trigger pull)

– Trigger disconnect (disengages the trigger bar if the slide is not fully in battery)

To be clear, the version of the trigger that has passed myriad safety testing protocols and the one submitted for MHS testing is the version currently in commercially-available P320s. Upgrades were engineered subsequently, rolled into the M17s that are now shipping, and will appear as standard in commercial P320s in the future.

For owners of current, commercial P320s, SIG is offering voluntary upgrades. This does, indeed, greatly mitigate the specific drop safety vulnerability that has been identified. More details will come next week. For now…
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Old August 8, 2017, 02:10 PM   #110
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You know what bugs me about this? Over on another forum there is a thread about this. Bruce Gray from Gray Guns, the resident SIG expert said that it was IMPOSSIBLE for the P320 to fire when dropped. He also said that the video that showed the gun firing when dropped was "obviously" fake!! One day later SIG acknowledges the issue and has a fix already because they fixed these issues for the M17 Military Trials!! Bruce works with SIG on design and upgrades for their guns. Did Bruce know that the military guns were different from the commercial guns? Was Bruce blindsided by SIG? Did he lie through his teeth about the issue? Or is Bruce not really the expert that his reputation claims him to be?
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Old August 8, 2017, 02:40 PM   #111
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Bruce Gray is a smith. It occurs to me that SIG Sauer likely has a number of smiths and engineers that work for them. If they "missed" this issue I don't find it impossible that he missed it as well. If there is a posting out there from Gray where he says explicitly that it was "impossible" for what the video shows to be real, then I think he got carried away. As someone with a degree in statistics from an engineering department there are few things I would ever say are "impossible".
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Old August 8, 2017, 03:45 PM   #112
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A bit more info on the "voluntary trigger upgrade":

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08...-p320-upgrade/
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Old August 8, 2017, 03:56 PM   #113
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^ If I'm reading that article right, it seems to indicate that SIG knew that this was a potential problem before the recent attention. They had been working to address it, but hadn't gone public yet.
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Old August 8, 2017, 03:58 PM   #114
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I think you are a bit mixed up as to events. The video that Bruce was referring to was posted on youtube some time ago (at least months) and purported to show a P320 firing when dropped with the muzzle more or less downward, landing on the magazine base plate and then impacting the rail on the grip module. That video was posted by a pretty much unknown individual and interestingly the video was pulled at the time the Dallas PD memo broke. I believe that this is a copy of the video which has been reposted on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfe9silCIm8

Dallas PD sent their email roughly two weeks ago prompting a lot of speculation about an AD or ADs that had been experienced with P320s which had been privately acquired by DPD officers (not issued by the DPD). It turns out that there had been no ADs experienced with P320s by the DPD and that was confirmed by both the DPD and SIG. It was in response to that action by the Dallas PD and the earlier video, now gone, that Bruce Gray made his comments. On August 4 Ron Cohen also issued a statement that said there had been zero (0) reported drop-related incidents with the P320 in the commercial market.

About three or four days ago, a rash of videos and test results have appeared on the internet, originally from Andrew Tuohy of Omaha Outdoors and also from The Truth about Guns which demonstrated P320s igniting empty primed cartridge cases when dropped at with the muzzle pointing up 30 degrees off vertical. These videos appeared to be legitimate.

To my knowledge, Bruce Gray has not made any public comment or responded to any of those videos. We now find out that SIG Sauer conducted its own testing over the weekend which confirmed the results of the recent video.

Last edited by pblanc; August 8, 2017 at 05:53 PM.
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Old August 8, 2017, 05:08 PM   #115
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TunnelRat, that's exactly what bugs me about the last post that Bruce made. He said that it was impossible for the P320 to fire when dropped and he called the guys that made the video liars. Perhaps he was in a bad mood when posting. However, calling the video makers liars was over the top and he should indeed know that nothing is impossible when it comes to mechanical devices. I've lost a bit of respect for him.
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Old August 8, 2017, 06:10 PM   #116
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Quote:
I think you are a bit mixed up as to events.
I don't believe that I am, and I think your timeline is an excellent summary. The way I read that article on Soldier Systems is that to me it suggests this is something SIG has been working on for longer than the recent events. That's my interpretation. That's based off of these two paragraphs.

Quote:
While the MHS passed DoD’s TOP 3-2-045 test with the trigger currently in the commercial P320, SIG proposed an enhanced trigger via Engineering Change Request E0005. As it didn’t result in additional cost to the government and only improved the firearm’s performance, M17s currently being delivered to the US Army have this trigger. Additionally, this trigger also eliminates the “double click” felt during P320 trigger pull.

Although SIG was already working toward introducing the MHS-inspired Enhanced Trigger to the P320, this -30deg drop issue has hastened their effort. They have lightened the Trigger, Striker and Sear by about 30% overall and added a Disconnect (commercial only, not MHS). The trigger pull weight is unaffected, but rather the trigger part actually weighs less. The reason they lightened those parts is to mitigate the momentum gained by the heavier parts during a drop.
The question becomes when the change request was submitted for the M17. To me it sounds like before these recent events.
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Old August 8, 2017, 07:18 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
^ If I'm reading that article right, it seems to indicate that SIG knew that this was a potential problem before the recent attention. They had been working to address it, but hadn't gone public yet.
You beat me to it. I am now very curious about what discovery turns up in that CT lawsuit (assuming there no settlement with an NDA).

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Old August 8, 2017, 07:22 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Auriemma View Post
With all the "drop testing" issues, you would think the testing standards would be made more robust and thorough. Once the new standards are set, ALL pistols should be retested whether you previously passed or not.

Then we will see who is "closer' to be being drop-safe.


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Old August 8, 2017, 08:15 PM   #119
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Looks like the Conncticut SRT officer who was injured when his P320 discharged during a fall while still in its holster just filed his lawsuit. My guess would be the Dallas PD heard about it through the police grapevine and nixed use.

I wonder when SIG received the demand letter or were served? I'm guessing they were aware they had a problem when JohnKSa made his first post.
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Old August 8, 2017, 08:19 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by presspics
TunnelRat, that's exactly what bugs me about the last post that Bruce made. He said that it was impossible for the P320 to fire when dropped and he called the guys that made the video liars. Perhaps he was in a bad mood when posting. However, calling the video makers liars was over the top and he should indeed know that nothing is impossible when it comes to mechanical devices. I've lost a bit of respect for him.
Could you provide a link or other reference to what Bruce wrote.
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Old August 8, 2017, 08:23 PM   #121
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I wonder when SIG received the demand letter or were served? I'm guessing they were aware they had a problem when JohnKSa made his first post.
To me the timing of all of this is what gets interesting. Finding out when they knew they had a problem is something I'd like to know, but likely never will. The existence of the parts already to fix this issue and slated for use in the M17 has me thinking this issue was known for longer than the past month. I wonder if one reason they didn't go public was they have to produce the parts for the fix and making sure they had what they needed for the M17 was the first priority.
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Old August 8, 2017, 09:08 PM   #122
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“Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”
Mr. Cohen is correct. There is probably no gun that is 100 percent drop-safe. For many years, it was almost universally accepted that a 1911 could not fire if dropped on its muzzle. There is still a description of tests purporting to "prove" this floating around the Internet. But then a few years ago two gentlemen named Walt Kuleck and Drake Oldham ran their own tests, and they found that 1911s (with no firing pin block) WILL fire when dropped on the muzzle -- and not necessarily from all that great a height. And they have posted videos of their testing.

So for anyone to state flat-out that any particular gun "can't" fire when dropped is, IMHO, rather foolish. One might argue that if SIG knew this was an issue early enough to have changed the trigger design on the military M17, they should have made the change on the commercial pistol as well. On the other hand, look how long it took Remington to even acknowledge the issue with their infamous trigger problem. SIG's response time is light years ahead of Remington's.
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Old August 8, 2017, 09:18 PM   #123
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I think it's completely fair to point out that no firearm is completely drop proof. I also think that the current drop tests only testing a perfectly parallel or perfectly parallel drop with the ground is probably too simplistic. Again, how many different angles do you have to cover though? They pointed out the sheer number of combinations in that article from Soldier Systems. Still I think even SIG recognizes that the current failure potential with the P320 warrants fixing and they are doing so.
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Old August 8, 2017, 09:43 PM   #124
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I disagree about legitimizing mishandling.

The gun should be drop safe within reason.. assuming no parts are damaged or broken.

I don't expect the gun to take super human abuse.. after all eventually the gun just breaks apart if, say I throw it off a building.

But I'd say anything less then being safe dropped from 6ft at any angle is not drop safe, and not onto some damn rubber mate.. I rarely remember to bring one with me.
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Old August 8, 2017, 09:57 PM   #125
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I don't know about any angle; but it seems like that particular angle is easy enough to achieve. As the TTAG guys pointed out, they didn't need a fixture to hold that angle, it just came natural.

I'm betting actual drops rarely involve a pistol perfectly parallel to the ground and honestly, I'm a bit more surprised that muzzle up with a slight tilt isn't part of the test routine.

After all, all the weight is in the mag, so it isn't like that drop is unrealistic or some bizarre anomaly.
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