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Old August 13, 2017, 06:57 PM   #126
FireForged
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Brother.. I have offered honest and thoughtful remarks that are absent all the drama and emotional play. Again, your comments are full of "purhaps".. I already stated that I don't deal in such speculative nuances, I deal in what I deem to be reasonable probabilities.

I understand where you are coming from, I just don't see it your way.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:16 PM   #127
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briandg, the key phrase in your posted law is:
Quote:
use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,
What you or I reasonably believe is not necessarily the same, or what a jury of your peers would believe. Coming to the conclusion that lethal force is necessary and justified is not as clear as some would like to believe, especially when all the facts are not known.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:43 PM   #128
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Im not really sure what the exact probability is on broken bones from that sort of attack.

But I don't think it's required to have a statistical figure in your head in the heat of the moment, and no one would have been able to tell if bones was being broken during the attack.. which is when action is required not after.

Someone pointed out majority of people shot do not die if they get medical attention.
We still consider a gun to be deadly no matter what make model type or caliber because we know IT CAN inflect death.

The victim just has to have a genuine fear of serious bodily harm OR death is imminent.
Even if he did not fear death I'd be really surprised if he did not fear serious bodily harm.

This ain't a court of law, We need not actually wait for the inflection of death to occur to defend our self's or by extension someone else defend us.
Self Defense is an affirmative defense (ya I did it but am justified), Self Defense is rendered preemptively to avoid death or serious bodily harm, Not something dolled out after the fact as tit-4-tat punishment.

James is right, He was helicoptered to the hospital.. They usually don't waste that resource if there is road access and the victim is stable.

We see him kinda moving a little at the end but several articles say he was beaten unconscious.
http://abc13.com/video-shows-brutal-...store/2292327/
Quote:
Richard Lee Archer, 39, was beaten unconscious while he was waiting in line at the store.
http://lufkindailynews.com/news/comm...cfcc65b74.html
Quote:
The victim was flown to an out-of-town hospital with serious injuries to his head, face and eyes, but as of noon Sunday, was expected to recover
https://www.click2houston.com/news/m...as-gas-station
Quote:
The victim, who called the incident "life-changing," was hospitalized and later released. He also requested that the surveillance video be released.
http://www.cbs19.tv/news/victim-spea...tore/463185462
Quote:
"My wife will disagree, but I'm glad it was me," he said. "If it hadn't, I think something really bad was about to happen to those store clerks."
Interesting thought.. I take it to mean he thinks his attacker would have robbed the 2 girls working the counter if he had not robbed him instead.

http://www.ktre.com/story/36101347/g...venience-store
*Mug shot on this article*
Quote:
“Instead, he was met a barrage of punches, kicks, and stomps that left him lying on the floor, in and out of consciousness,” Pebsworth said.
Sounds like a concision (swelling of the brain), Anyone who's ever had one will know how bad they are and how series they can be, can't walk or talk, world spins, very little motor control.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:45 PM   #129
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Forged.

You start at "possible" and go to "probable" dismissing the element of uncertainty and acting on judgment

A drawn gun, finger on the trigger,threat of death, when and where does this go from possible to probable,and then to the supposed certainty that is being demanded in many of these posts?

"I think that this guy is about to be seriously injured, maybe killed during this attack. I'd better wait until I'm a hell of a lot more certain that his head is going to pop off."

Quote:
A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,
Keywords:

Reasonable belief (no mention of probable,certainty)
force to be necessary to defend a third person from what he or she reasonably believes (a unlawful attack or injury. (Doesnt restrict the definition.)


the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person, (there doesn't even have to be an attack in progress, as long as the "reasonable person" has "reasonable belief" that someone is about to criminally attack another.

"the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person "
Now, this law doesn't even address disparity of force. "Oh, my God, he has a broken bottle and he's gouging at the other guys carotid artery, but all I have is my pistol, I should probably not do anything yet." Use necessary force.

This information was copied from the statute. I am reasonably interpreting them, they're pretty simple and clear.

So, once more, get a copy of these laws for your state and understand them.

If you would prefer to not do so, not get involved,let someone else get a serious beating while you debate with yourself that is your choice and a choice that only you own.

Understand the laws of your jurisdiction, and simply put, this has become unnecessary now. Everyone here should just spend their time reading and carefully considering applicable laws and leave it at that.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:45 PM   #130
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Well said K_Mac

which is why I have always leaned heavily toward a mindset of doing only what I MUST do (what I have no choice but to do) and not what I think I can or may do. No matter if I am right, wrong or sideways... there will likely be a very long line of people who will closely examine everything action that I took and weigh it against the their own filter or reasonableness.
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Old August 13, 2017, 08:51 PM   #131
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@Fire
You're not going to render aid to anyone under any circumstances.
That's fine.. Then just state that and move on. It's honest and to the point.

But the last few pages seems like people are trying to find ways to avoid stating that bluntly, instead making it seem like the whole thing is too hazy to make a determination if deadly force is even justified and that's why they can't/won't help.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:00 PM   #132
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Quote:
Reasonable belief (no mention of probable,certainty)
I wont proclaim what the law means .. I will simply say that I construct a reasonable belief based on evidence that at least rises to what is probable. In my mind, I cannot construct or develop a reasonable belief based on supposition or speculation. That's called a hunch in my mind and that is somewhere less than a reasonable belief and more like having a suspicion that something is likely to happen. Everyone has a standard and that's mine.

I don't think the statute says.. a belief based on reasonable suspicion, if it does I will gladly supplement my narrative with a retraction. If you have a matrix to offer which details how "reasonable" is going to be qualified by this court , that court, this DA or that DA.. I will gladly accept that as educational but until then, I will stick with my own standard which is obviously higher than many in this thread.
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Last edited by FireForged; August 13, 2017 at 09:12 PM.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:17 PM   #133
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Fire if that was you would you want help?
(I know no one one this board would ever be in that situation because we're all 100% alert 100% of the time and never make mistakes, but lets just pretend)

If that was your loved one.. Would you want someone to help them?

If that was your loved one and no one helped and you get to the scene and find out I was there armed and could have helped but instead just watched would you be angry with me?

If you answered yes to any of those 3 questions I'd say it a reasonable person would find it reasonable to use force.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:20 PM   #134
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Quote:
@Fire
You're not going to render aid to anyone under any circumstances.
That's fine.. Then just state that and move on. It's honest and to the point
Its not likely that I would get in the middle of someone elses fight, you are right. I do not carry a gun to act as a public sentinel. That said, I would likely help a LEO since we all expect them to do the same for us.. I think it only fair that I would do the same for them.

Quote:
If that was your loved one.. Would you want someone to help them?
emotion and sentiment does not change the way I make my decision to get involved or not, I can live with my decisions. If someone did not want to help my family during a crisis, that's on them.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:23 PM   #135
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Technically police officers have no duty to protect the individual.
The fact that they do is purely out of a sense of duty and love for life.

I would defend you FireFroged.. but you don't know me so If I needed help you'd just watch me die.

You know what? I'd help you if I saw you in a bad way.. Even if I did know you.

I appreciate the Honestly though, I know a lot of people on this board share that philosophy.

Quote:
emotion and sentiment does not change the way I make my decision to get involved or not, I can live with my decisions. If someone did not want to help my family during a crisis, that's on them.
Then why are you going to aid a LEO? Is there some reward waiting for you in the end? Seems like Sentiment to me.

Last edited by JoeSixpack; August 13, 2017 at 09:32 PM.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:32 PM   #136
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Joe, I have already said I would probably have intervened here, but not with a firearm.

What I won't do is beat my chest and say that using a firearm to defend a guy that causes a fight and won't defend himself is the right course of action. He could have let the thug have the wallet. He could have fought to keep it. What he did was passively step in front of the thug to stop him. Ray Charles could see that wasn't going to end well.

briandg, I wish I was as confident as you are that my assessment of any situation is as righteous as yours. Understanding the law, and making split second, life and death decisions are two very different things
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:38 PM   #137
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I think most of us are viscerally outraged by this video.It takes us to primal fight or flight. I'm sure if medical instruments were hooked up to us as we viewed it,we would show physical responses to the video.
To make a bad analogy,"It builds us up and leaves us hanging"
It sticks in our craw.

We really NEED to see Clint Eastwood suggest "Now if you boys will just apologise to my mule,like I know you will...." Pew...pew....pew...pew
All the bad guys fall down. Yeah!!! Pry the top off a cold Lone Star.

I think there is a primal force inside of us ,clear back to caves,stone knives,and bear skins,that says that bully attacker needs to be put down...whether he is a thug or a cave bear or sabre tooth tiger.
Howmany of us mentally did a Mozambique drill on the bad guy?

The question becomes "Do we want our honest,real,natural EMOTIONS pressing the trigger?"

I'm with the folks who would write the movie with Dirty Harry in the store buying a roller dog ,the S+W 29 comes out and Callahan has to explain another dead thug to the Chief.

Maybe that's the way we would like things to be.

But this forum has a responsibility.We do carry real guns,we may see this situation,its not a movie,and,for myself,I want to know my LEGAL exposure.

Deaf,if you are in Texas,and all you believe in is true,shoot the SOB,and you are my hero!!

I appreciate Old Marksman pointing out the very real possibilities of what MAY happen next.

IMO,its good this was broken down to the timeline,the facts,the options,and potential outcomes.

With all respect to the Republic of Texas,there are some places in Texas where you can be prosecuted in Texas for running your BBQ in your back yard because your neighbors don't like the smell of ribs and briskets.IN TEXAS!!!

Last edited by HiBC; August 13, 2017 at 09:44 PM.
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Old August 13, 2017, 09:49 PM   #138
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That's a nice closing post. And on that note, let's put this one to bed.
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