380 ACP Seating Challenges. FMJ FP COL?

[markr6754]

I’m looking for help/guidance with 380 ACP loads that don’t want to feed from my new Baby Rock SS mags.

I loaded some 380ACP with 4.0 gr Silhouette, WIN brass (SS tumbled), and I’m trying the Sierra 95gr FMJ FP. I have successfully loaded and shot similar loads using the Berry’s 100gr HBRN. Several magazine feed challenges guided me to useg 0.965” C.O.L. vs 0.98”.

The rounds plunk well, but when I tested in my mags I found the rounds would hang up, I couldn’t load 3 rounds. I took the seating lower and lower until I got down to 0.932”. I can load 7 rounds, but it seems that I still have trouble manually stripping the rounds.

I’m near minimum load for Silhouette for this bullet, but that was presumed to be at 0.98”.

Factory FMJ RN rounds load and strip fine.

Any thoughts?

[Aguila Blanca]

Is this the bullet, their #8105?

{Edit: please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials. You need the copyright holders permission.}

The bullet profile is more of a truncated cone than a round nose, flat point. The Baby Rock is a clone of a much older pistol from the long-defunct Llama brand in Spain. Like the original 1911, I suspect the Llama Micromax was designed around ball ammo and perhaps doesn't play well with truncated cone bullet profiles.

I'd suggest trying a couple of different bullets in the same weight.

[snakeye]

markr6754

I'm confused, are you talking about the rounds not feeding from the magazine or feeding into the barrel....at first I assumed you were talking about feeding into the chamber but then you said " I still have trouble manually stripping the rounds."

[markr6754]

I'm confused, are you talking about the rounds not feeding from the magazine or feeding into the barrel.

Snakeye...you have it on the nose. I loaded a magazine, as I’ve had problems with 380 reloads, I had to decrease COL to 0.96” for Berry’s 100gr HBRN plated bullets...I had failures to feed with COL at 0.98” as specified, and saw that my rounds were not rising up in the magazine.

Thinking that the FP bullets might fed differently I attempted to load a magazine. After the 2nd round I couldn’t feed a 3rd. So I slowly lowered the COL down to 0.932” in 3 increments. At this length I can load 7 rounds in the 7 rd magazine, but I end with a similar problem. It’s as if the rounds are either too fat, or still a hair long, as rounds keep getting stuck down inside the magazine. I am manually pulling rounds out of the magazine...I haven’t tried shooting any of this ammo yet. I wanted to test magazine feeding at home before spending time at the range.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Is this the bullet, their #8105?



The bullet profile is more of a truncated cone than a round nose, flat point. The Baby Rock is a clone of a much older pistol from the long-defunct Llama brand in Spain. Like the original 1911, I suspect the Llama Micromax was designed around ball ammo and perhaps doesn't play well with truncated cone bullet profiles.

I'd suggest trying a couple of different bullets in the same weight.

White Eagle, you’ve got it! The Sierra 8105. You may have it right there, in which case I have a lot of light bullets that I’ll have to run in my Beretta, which eats anything. Of course, I bought them specifically for my new Baby Rock. I can’t even say they were that cheap...$11.12/box of 100. But they sure are pretty bullets. I couldn’t find any specific load data for them, had I known I’d encounter this problem I would’ve loaded a lot lighter than 4gr of Silhouette.

[Carmady]

I just measured several WWB 95gr FMJ Target rounds. These are Flat Nose, or Truncated Cone, but it says Full Metal Jacket on the box.

Out of about ten rounds, OAL's were from .938" to .950".

You might want to disassemble your mag/s and see how freely the follower moves up and down. I did that with a few LCP mags, all new Mec-Gar, and was surprised at the differences in how they acted. If your followers are plastic/polymer, and sticking in the mag body, you could sand them down a bit until they don't drag and hang up.

[markr6754]

I received this response from Phillip Mahin, engineer at Sierra Bullets: “Something else on the crimping note, try setting up the die to seat the bullet without a crimp first then, once it is seated where you want, go back and adjust the die to crimp without the stem touching the bullet. I’ve had issues where the case bulged from seating and crimping with the same press stroke.”

So I gave it a try. First I made up 7 dummy rounds with Berry’s 100gr HBRN. I seated them long ( by error) to .996”, and they all loaded fine in my magazine, and manually fed and ejected from my Baby Rock. Encouraged, I then loaded 7 dummy’s with Sierra 95gr FMJ FP, this time actually loaded to .965”, no crimp, and they also loaded fine, and manually fed and ejected from my firearm.

Clearly, my reloading skills still need a lot of work. I never realized that I was squashing my 380s, which put just enough of a bulge in the round to impede movement into my magazines. Thinking back, I thought my rounds looked a bit “off”, they certainly had more “shape” than factory rounds, but I tended to blame that on the .356” bullet diameter. I’ll have to try this all again, and if I can’t Master seating and crimping in one step I’ll pick up a Lee Factory Crimp Die and add an extra step to my reloading process. I already do it for 9mm, nothing wrong with doing it for 380ACP.

[kmw1954]

markr6754 good to hear of your results. Another thing to keep in mind is that the case walls of the 380 are pretty thin and thereby being a bit softer.

I have posted before of problems using my Lee Auto Drum with the 380 because is was chipping the case mouths out with it. A simple switch to the Lee Auto Disk and the problem magically disappeared.

I have been loading the 380 with both Berry's and Xtreme 100gr bullets using a Lee 3 die set and as of yet I haven't experienced what you describe.

[T. O'Heir]

"...doesn't play well with truncated cone..." So was the 1911/1911A1 and BHP. TC's are about getting the OAL just right. SAAMI Max is .984". Minimum is .910". Fitting in the mag is a big priority though.
However, it sounds like it's more of a mag issue than the load. Try tweaking the lips open a wee, tiny, small, bit with needle nosed pliers. Had to do that with a 30 round M1 Carbine mag that wouldn't feed reliably. A very wee tweaking fixed it.
"...near minimum load for..." The load doesn't matter for OAL. 4.0 is a mid range load for a 100 grain bullet too. Close enough for a 95.

[Aguila Blanca]

Sounds like you would benefit from using a Lee factory crimp die. With the FCD, you adjust the seating die for no crimp, and use it only for seating the projectile. The FCD both makes the crimp AND performs a post-load full-length resize, all in one stroke.

I do all my handgun loads using the appropriate Lee factory crimp die. I use a 4-station Lee turret press, with the FCD in the fourth station.

[markr6754]

Kevin, Thanks for the encouragement. Tonight I loaded a whopping 33 rounds. Carefully weighed and measured 7 rounds of 2.9gr, 3.0gr, and 3.1gr HP-38 with Sierra 95gr FMJ FP at 0.96” COL. Then I did 6 each of Berry’s 100gr HBRN with 2.5gr and 2.7gr HP-38 at 0.98” COL. I didn’t crimp any of them...yet. They feel solid, and I couldn’t detect any residual belling. I’ll try to shoot them tomorrow night after work...I’ll give some thought as to whether or not I do a light taper crimp beforehand.

Aguila Blanca...I’m of the same opinion, but I consider that my surrender option. I have detected additional problems with my 380 ACP reloading process. I didn’t change my die setup when I switched from Berry’s 100gr HBRN to the Sierra 8105 95gr FMJ FP. Further, I didn’t switch to the Flat Point seating plug. I changed only the projectile, another rookie mistake.

Since my dummy rounds all fed well, both into the magazines and manually cycling through my pistol, I don’t believe that mag lip modifications are necessary. At least not at this juncture. I’ll have a better answer by the end of this week.

[kmw1954]

Mark I'm using just a standard Lee 3 die pistol set and there is only one seating die plug and I have gone back and forth between RN and Flat point w/o incident. Just reset the OAL to appropriate length. Though I will admit there have been a couple times that I forgot to back out the seating plug when going from flat to round and surprise, surprise the 1st round comes out short! Where's that bullet puller.

[Aguila Blanca]

I have even seated semi-wadcutters with Lee's standard seating die and it worked, but it was less than ideal. I finally broke down about three or four months back and had Lee make up a custom seating plug for the SWCs.

[markr6754]

Okay....so I shot the 33 rounds I loaded yesterday. 3 magazines of Sierra FMJ FP...all gave the same problem as before...wouldn’t rise up in the magazine, all 4 magazines had trouble. These were all loaded to 0.96” as advised, low end of Load Recipes, and I didn’t crimp them so no chance of bulged cases, but they continue hanging up at the rear of the magazine.

The Berry’s 100gr HBRN were loaded to 0.98” per Hornady book, functioned better...but no panacea. The suspected bulged rounds from previous test loads with crimp all 25 rounds fired flawlessly from a Bersa Thunder 380, and I have to admit, I liked shooting it a whole bunch better than my Baby Rock.

Conclusion, Baby Rock CANNOT use reloaded ammo, no matter how exactingly prepared.

[kmw1954]

Mark, what happens if you partially load the magazine? Will a single round feed into the chamber? Will it feed if you load just 2 rounds into the magazine?

I don't believe the problem is with the gun. I think it is in the magazine some how.

I just seen a video of a guy having a problem with the slide lock and the magazine when he would rack the gun.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...1&&FORM=VRDGAR

[markr6754]

Kevin...you’ve got the matter down. It is definitely a magazine issue. I can generally load 2 rounds without issue, but then I can feel the bullets binding at the head. This usually occurs by the 3rd round. All 4 magazines act the same. If I am able to load 7 or even 6 rounds, the first round, and possibly the first 2 will load and fire. However, the following rounds remain stuck down inside the magazine...I have pulled the magazine, and when inverted, the next round will drop out on its own, but the remainder are stuck.

Concerning the issue in the video...I’ve had that occur one time while manually racking the slide. The slide release moved out just enough to lock it up. But...I concluded that I hit the removal button inadvertently. That’s also the only time the magazine needed help to drop free. It’s never occurred while shooting.

[kmw1954]

Have you tried pushing the plastic follower down and compressing the spring with something other than bullets? It could be the plastic follower is getting stuck. Have you tried to contact RIA about this?

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Have you tried pushing the plastic follower down and compressing the spring with something other than bullets? It could be the plastic follower is getting stuck. Have you tried to contact RIA about this?

Kevin,
These are all metal magazines. I’ve used a pencil to push down the followers, and they do seem tight. The springs are super long...like twice the height of the magazine. Once the spring is compressed and pinned, the followers have to be coaxed out of the magazine by knocking it on the table, then slipping a punch inside to hook the follower to pull it out.

I’m going to Pahrump next week, and I’ll bring these magazines with me and head to the Armscor plant. I’m lucky that way. This way I may get a chance to have them check out my pistol while I’m there.

[markr6754]

Results of shooting trials 8/5/2018 - Indoor range - Rock Island Armory “Baby Rock” 380ACP
4 stainless Armscor factory 1911-380 mags - 7 rounds (discovered that 1 holds 8 rounds)
4 different loads fired through each magazine - 28 rounds per load except factory box of 50

First Load - Aquila 380ACP, 95gr, FMJ round nose COL 0.976”
Magazines 1, 2, and 4 fed and cycled all rounds, all fired, slide locked back
Magazine 3 failed to load first round. Dropped and reloaded 7 rounds. Still failure to feed. Follower not raising up as 1st round fed into barrel. Pulled and inverted magazine, 3 rounds fell out. Tapped out all rounds, reloaded magazine. First round fed into barrel, fired, no new round loaded. Tap, tap, tap...now have 6 factory Aquila rounds in magazine...all fired and cycled fine.
Proceeded to load and fire remaining rounds of Aguila in magazine 3 with additional repeats of above failures. Final load of 6 rounds all fed and fired fine.

Switch to Reloads:
All loads R-P 380 brass, wet tumbled with SS pins. Rem 1 1/2 SPP. Processed through LEE Factory Crimp Die

1st load: 2.9gr HP-38, 100gr Berry’s CP HBRN, COL 0.98” light crimp
All 28 rounds fed, fired, and cycled without issue from ALL magazines

2nd load: 3.1gr HP-38, 100gr Berry’s CP HBRN, COL 0.98” light crimp
All 28 rounds fed, fired, and cycled without issue from ALL magazines

3rd load: 3.1gr VV N320, 95gr Sierra FMJ FP, COL 0.96” light crimp
All 28 rounds fed, fired, and cycled without issue from ALL magazines

Conclusion: problem has continually evolved. Where I had no problems with factory ammo, I now have problems only with factory ammo in Magazine #3 (my markings w/Sharpie)
Three self loads, final processing through Lee FCD, two different powders, 2 bullet weights, 2 nose configurations, 2 projectile weights worked flawlessly, while also being pleasingly accurate and pleasant shooting. Testing, of course, will continue, but with less trepidation than before. Thanks for standing by me through this ordeal, and appreciate all the many tips.

[kmw1954]

Good job Mark! Might want to fiddle with that 3rd mag and maybe it too will loosen up. Maybe a slight shot of spay oil.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Mark my problems with the only Rock Island gun I own have been traced to the factory magazine that came with the gun. My only RI so far is a 9mm. When using the factory supplied Mec Gar magazine it was a jam-o-mattic. Switching to Metal Form magazines solved all problems I had with the gun.

I am wanting the Baby Rock. No one around here seems to have one when I have the disposable income to buy one. I got my wife a Browning Black Label 1911 .380. I would probably try to see if the Rock would take the Browning mags. You may also try to see if it will take mags from Kimber, or Sig as well.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Good job Mark! Might want to fiddle with that 3rd mag and maybe it too will loosen up. Maybe a slight shot of spay oil.

Thanks Kevin, getting better at disassembling these magazines. Took mag 3 apart for a thorough cleaning, light lube, and worked the follower up and down a few dozen times. It “seems” better, but the proof is in the shooting. Loaded up new rounds last night, including a first use of CFE-P. Will give mag 3 an extensive trial.