Winchester 10mm 200gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics Gel

5pins · March 23, 2018, 07:25 PM

Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 10MM 200gr Black Talon SXT.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Gel Temperature: 70 degrees.

I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it. Of course, they really didn’t stop making them, they just removed the black coating and renamed it. But before they were all gone I went to my favorite gun store, The White Elephant, to by a box.

The only caliber left was some 10MM. I didn’t own a 10MM and didn’t really have any desire to get one. Not that it really mattered, I just thought it would be cool to have some. Years later, last year, I picked up a used Colt Delta Elite.

The first round in bare gel had a velocity of 897fps it penetrated to 17 inches and expanded to .82 inches. Round two hit at 912fps with 16.25 inches of penetration and expanded to .84 inches.

In heavy clothing, the first round had a velocity of 944fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was uneven with only one side of the bullet extending outward to .70 inches. Round two went into the block at 992fps and penetrated to 17.75 inches. Like the first round, expansion was uneven at .65 inches.

DaleA · March 24, 2018, 01:24 PM

So you bought a box of ammo that you couldn't shoot because you didn't have a gun that would fit it?

And then you kept the ammo for years and years and finally did obtain a gun to shoot it and posted the range results?

Wow, are you in the right place!!!

Thanks for posting the information.

I've got to ask though, had you checked to see if a box of the dread 'Black Talon' ammo had any collector value before you shot the rounds?

Good luck.

briandg · March 24, 2018, 02:37 PM

just so you know, I really appreciate these reviews. An excellent learning tool.

Ricklin · March 24, 2018, 03:06 PM

I have a mint box of Black Talon in .380. From the good old days when SD ammo was 50 to the box.

I downsized to an LCP primarily because it is so easy to always have on body vs. a G19.

I think I will hang on too it. Today's SD ammo is superior, the box I have is 20 + YO.

5pins · March 24, 2018, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleA

So you bought a box of ammo that you couldn't shoot because you didn't have a gun that would fit it?

And then you kept the ammo for years and years and finally did obtain a gun to shoot it and posted the range results?

Wow, are you in the right place!!!

Thanks for posting the information.

I've got to ask though, had you checked to see if a box of the dread 'Black Talon' ammo had any collector value before you shot the rounds?

Good luck.

No, I didn't. There is a box on Gun Broker with 6 bids for $72.

Reloadron · March 24, 2018, 07:45 PM

No, I didn't. There is a box on Gun Broker with 6 bids for $72.

Wow, I still have a box of Winchester Black Talon .45 ACP. I had no clue what some people were willing to pay for the stuff.

Ron

Cheapshooter · March 24, 2018, 07:58 PM

Thanks for another interesting, and informational review. Keep up the good work.

Kreyzhorse · March 25, 2018, 06:16 AM

OP, that is a fantastic story. Almost brought tears of joy! Buying ammo for a gun you didn't own and then keeping it for years.

Also, a great review on the ammo.

Siggy-06 · March 25, 2018, 08:25 AM

They were deemed more dangerous not just because all of the negative media hype, but also because they were cutting into doctor's latex gloves in hospitals during extractions. Good at putting the badguys down, bad for the doctor keeping them alive.

Reloadron · March 25, 2018, 08:58 AM

Siggy-06 Mentions:

Quote:

They were deemed more dangerous not just because all of the negative media hype, but also because they were cutting into doctor's latex gloves in hospitals during extractions. Good at putting the badguys down, bad for the doctor keeping them alive.

Along those lines from the people at Wikipedia:

Quote:

The ammunition was decried by those opposed to civilian ownership of handguns. Some medical personnel were concerned that the sharp barb-like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection, however there are no documented reports of this actually happening. Most jacketed bullet designs that expand expose sharp edges or corners.

A good point is made in that not only was there no documented instance of this ever happening but that same possibility exist with just about any similar jacketed bullet which has expanded in tissue.

Ron

RJay · March 25, 2018, 02:21 PM

There was also the boo-a-bear story of how the petals would blossom out like tiny knives and the spinning motion of the bullet would slice and dice it's way through the b0dy like a tiny guillotine . Pure bunk of course, but it made good reading+

fastbolt · March 25, 2018, 02:55 PM

Yeah, the early iteration of the BT seemed to have a bit of an overblown reputation. I remember looking at some of the FBI's testing of it back then, and it didn't seem as though it was anything special, or even very good.

In some of the subsequent years it was learned that if the jacket notching cuts of the "petals" wasn't cut deeply enough (like if it wasn't noticed the cutters had become dull), it impeded expansion.

Here's a couple of old shots from a hosted Winchester gel event at our range, sometime in the early 2000's, I think.

The first pic is of the standard pressure SXT .45 in both standard & +P pressure loads, fired from a 3.25" barrel into organic gel in a 4LD test.

These pics were from the same test, using the same standard & +P loads, but fired from a 4.25" Commander. Note the standard pressure bullet didn't uniformly expand. As I recall, the same standard pressure load was recorded at not quite 100fps faster out of the Commander, too. Go figure.

Still, all things considered, that's some respectable expansion, and it could still create some nasty wounding, especially if the bullet yaws.

I used to have a lot of the original BT rounds, in 3 or 4 calibers, but I used up all but a couple of them as range ammo. I think I still have a couple boxes of the standard .45 & 147gr 9mm BT out in my ammo collection.

**Mike Irwin** · March 27, 2018, 06:12 AM

"I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it."

I was on staff at American Rifleman when the Black Talon came out. I was talking to Winchester's PR director one day (just before it was released to the public) and mentioned that I thought the name was a bad name, that it would cause issues for Winchester.

He sort of laughed at me and we went on to other subjects.

It wasn't long before talking heads were accusing the NRA (one NPR pundit called it the Negro Removal Association) of being in cahoots with Winchester to provide an ammunition to more effectively cause the deaths of at risk inner city individuals (at risk because they were engaging in highly risky criminal behavior, but it was declasse to point that out).

Things REALLY hit the fan for Winchester when the ammo was used in a couple of high profile shootings.

briandg · March 27, 2018, 08:52 AM

mike, it shakes me to the very core sometimes when i see things like the talon controversy. it shows that the level of stupidity which we can sink to is limitless.

advertising is so powerful, and some of the best minds in the world and hundreds of millions of dollars are spent very effectively manipulating our thinking. talon is a great example of success and failure. it lit a fire under shooters with the promise of extreme lethality, and it also induced a rage and disgust among those who dont want to have people being killed with guns. damn, that was stupid. dont make yourself an easy target!

one that just blew my mind was a cigar press release, a top grade cigar used a new 'innovative display system' that must have been rolled in corn meal and fried, then slathered with stupid sauce. the interview with cigar aficionado was done by a talentless dork who talked nonsense about the box while fumbling around with it. he never once talked about the cigar. hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent creating that product, and presentation and release were pathetic.

i was part of the pre-release assessment, I gave the cigars high marks, but the fella doing the press review couldn't even bother describing what tobaccos were used.

More time and money are spent on selling products than the average guy can even imagine, and every once in a while the work is just mind numbingly stupid.

Here's the video. This thing has marked me, in ten, fifteen years, I can't shake it off. The truly ironic thing is that the "glass topped cohiba" is one of the biggest jokes among the truly educated cigar smoker. The cuban cohiba is a cigar that costs around $30-$150 each, and all over central america, street hawkers sell fakes in glass topped boxes at ridiculously low prices. Most of the people who I know saw that "glass topped box" and just split their sides laughing.

http://video.cigaraficionado.com/pla...tagas_1845_Box

bamaranger · March 28, 2018, 01:58 AM

You buy ammo for a firearm you don't own. I passed up a steal on .22 Hornet ammo about a decade ago, 500 rds or so. I just couldn't make the plunge.

A 200 gr 10mm at sub 100 fps from a 5" barrel. Does anybody else think that is pretty lame 10mm numbers?

March 23, 2018, 07:25 PM	#1
5pins Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1998 Location: WV Posts: 252	Winchester 10mm 200gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics Gel Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite. Barrel length: 5 inches. Ammunition: Winchester 10MM 200gr Black Talon SXT. Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet. Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens. Gel Temperature: 70 degrees. I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it. Of course, they really didn’t stop making them, they just removed the black coating and renamed it. But before they were all gone I went to my favorite gun store, The White Elephant, to by a box. The only caliber left was some 10MM. I didn’t own a 10MM and didn’t really have any desire to get one. Not that it really mattered, I just thought it would be cool to have some. Years later, last year, I picked up a used Colt Delta Elite. The first round in bare gel had a velocity of 897fps it penetrated to 17 inches and expanded to .82 inches. Round two hit at 912fps with 16.25 inches of penetration and expanded to .84 inches. In heavy clothing, the first round had a velocity of 944fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was uneven with only one side of the bullet extending outward to .70 inches. Round two went into the block at 992fps and penetrated to 17.75 inches. Like the first round, expansion was uneven at .65 inches. __________________ www.general-cartridge.com

March 24, 2018, 02:37 PM	#3
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	just so you know, I really appreciate these reviews. An excellent learning tool. __________________ None.

March 24, 2018, 03:06 PM	#4
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Worth money?? I have a mint box of Black Talon in .380. From the good old days when SD ammo was 50 to the box. I downsized to an LCP primarily because it is so easy to always have on body vs. a G19. I think I will hang on too it. Today's SD ammo is superior, the box I have is 20 + YO. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 24, 2018, 07:58 PM	#7
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Thanks for another interesting, and informational review. Keep up the good work. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

March 25, 2018, 06:16 AM	#8
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	OP, that is a fantastic story. Almost brought tears of joy! Buying ammo for a gun you didn't own and then keeping it for years. Also, a great review on the ammo. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

March 24, 2018, 01:24 PM	#2
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	So you bought a box of ammo that you couldn't shoot because you didn't have a gun that would fit it? And then you kept the ammo for years and years and finally did obtain a gun to shoot it and posted the range results? Wow, are you in the right place!!! Thanks for posting the information. I've got to ask though, had you checked to see if a box of the dread 'Black Talon' ammo had any collector value before you shot the rounds? Good luck.

March 24, 2018, 07:45 PM	#6
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	No, I didn't. There is a box on Gun Broker with 6 bids for $72. Wow, I still have a box of Winchester Black Talon .45 ACP. I had no clue what some people were willing to pay for the stuff. Ron

March 25, 2018, 08:25 AM	#9
Siggy-06 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 1,148	They were deemed more dangerous not just because all of the negative media hype, but also because they were cutting into doctor's latex gloves in hospitals during extractions. Good at putting the badguys down, bad for the doctor keeping them alive. __________________ Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.

March 25, 2018, 02:21 PM	#11
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	There was also the boo-a-bear story of how the petals would blossom out like tiny knives and the spinning motion of the bullet would slice and dice it's way through the b0dy like a tiny guillotine . Pure bunk of course, but it made good reading+ __________________ Ron James

March 25, 2018, 02:55 PM	#12
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	Yeah, the early iteration of the BT seemed to have a bit of an overblown reputation. I remember looking at some of the FBI's testing of it back then, and it didn't seem as though it was anything special, or even very good. In some of the subsequent years it was learned that if the jacket notching cuts of the "petals" wasn't cut deeply enough (like if it wasn't noticed the cutters had become dull), it impeded expansion. Here's a couple of old shots from a hosted Winchester gel event at our range, sometime in the early 2000's, I think. The first pic is of the standard pressure SXT .45 in both standard & +P pressure loads, fired from a 3.25" barrel into organic gel in a 4LD test. These pics were from the same test, using the same standard & +P loads, but fired from a 4.25" Commander. Note the standard pressure bullet didn't uniformly expand. As I recall, the same standard pressure load was recorded at not quite 100fps faster out of the Commander, too. Go figure. Still, all things considered, that's some respectable expansion, and it could still create some nasty wounding, especially if the bullet yaws. I used to have a lot of the original BT rounds, in 3 or 4 calibers, but I used up all but a couple of them as range ammo. I think I still have a couple boxes of the standard .45 & 147gr 9mm BT out in my ammo collection. __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

March 27, 2018, 06:12 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it." I was on staff at American Rifleman when the Black Talon came out. I was talking to Winchester's PR director one day (just before it was released to the public) and mentioned that I thought the name was a bad name, that it would cause issues for Winchester. He sort of laughed at me and we went on to other subjects. It wasn't long before talking heads were accusing the NRA (one NPR pundit called it the Negro Removal Association) of being in cahoots with Winchester to provide an ammunition to more effectively cause the deaths of at risk inner city individuals (at risk because they were engaging in highly risky criminal behavior, but it was declasse to point that out). Things REALLY hit the fan for Winchester when the ammo was used in a couple of high profile shootings. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 27, 2018, 08:52 AM	#14
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	mike, it shakes me to the very core sometimes when i see things like the talon controversy. it shows that the level of stupidity which we can sink to is limitless. advertising is so powerful, and some of the best minds in the world and hundreds of millions of dollars are spent very effectively manipulating our thinking. talon is a great example of success and failure. it lit a fire under shooters with the promise of extreme lethality, and it also induced a rage and disgust among those who dont want to have people being killed with guns. damn, that was stupid. dont make yourself an easy target! one that just blew my mind was a cigar press release, a top grade cigar used a new 'innovative display system' that must have been rolled in corn meal and fried, then slathered with stupid sauce. the interview with cigar aficionado was done by a talentless dork who talked nonsense about the box while fumbling around with it. he never once talked about the cigar. hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent creating that product, and presentation and release were pathetic. i was part of the pre-release assessment, I gave the cigars high marks, but the fella doing the press review couldn't even bother describing what tobaccos were used. More time and money are spent on selling products than the average guy can even imagine, and every once in a while the work is just mind numbingly stupid. Here's the video. This thing has marked me, in ten, fifteen years, I can't shake it off. The truly ironic thing is that the "glass topped cohiba" is one of the biggest jokes among the truly educated cigar smoker. The cuban cohiba is a cigar that costs around $30-$150 each, and all over central america, street hawkers sell fakes in glass topped boxes at ridiculously low prices. Most of the people who I know saw that "glass topped box" and just split their sides laughing. http://video.cigaraficionado.com/pla...tagas_1845_Box __________________ None. Last edited by briandg; March 27, 2018 at 09:04 AM.

March 28, 2018, 01:58 AM	#15
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	You might be a gun nut if........... You buy ammo for a firearm you don't own. I passed up a steal on .22 Hornet ammo about a decade ago, 500 rds or so. I just couldn't make the plunge. A 200 gr 10mm at sub 100 fps from a 5" barrel. Does anybody else think that is pretty lame 10mm numbers?