The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 17, 2013, 12:35 PM   #1
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Need help to I.D. black powder pistol

Hello... Can anybody help me ID this pistol. My late father was a woodworker, machinist, and home taught gunsmith all in one. I watched him as a child (I'm 58 now) make stocks, parts and assemble many type of firearms. I have NO IDEA if he made most of this pistol at the shop from parts or ?????. I watched him make a beautiful black powder long rifle using parts from a "Janssen Sons & Co." black powder shotgun. So does anyone recognize this firearm??? The only markings to identify from is on the lock plate. In from of hammer in very small print on lock plate is "E. THOMAS". And... on far left side of lock plate bottom are 2 birds?... maybe pheasants. Anybody have any ideas of pistols origins aside from him just making it up as he went along??? Thanks... Brad
Attached Images
File Type: jpg #3.jpg (243.2 KB, 137 views)
File Type: jpg #5.jpg (242.9 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg #7.jpg (241.7 KB, 88 views)
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 01:36 PM   #2
woodnbow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Posts: 190
I don't have a clue except it looks like a percussion version of a kentucky style pistol or maybe his idea of a hawken belt pistol? Whatever it is supposed to be it IS beautiful. He did a wonderful job in my opinion, nice wood and stain, just an overall attractive pistol. Being built by your pa it is also priceless...
woodnbow is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 02:52 PM   #3
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
The shape of the aft portion of the stock...

...Is very much like the CVA colonial pistol, however I think the overall length of your pistol exceeds that of the Colonial.

I dead give-away on that score would be a marking on the barrel which denotes Spanish manufacture at a firm called Jukar.

I can tell you that Jukar did not put the expense into the wood components that is clearly visible in the stock of your pistol.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 02:54 PM   #4
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
By the way....

Welcome to the forum.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 03:02 PM   #5
bedbugbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 3,283
My guess . . . and mind you, it is only a guess, is that this is a pistol your father put together from parts 'n pieces of older guns/spare parts. If you look at the lock, you'll see that the drum (piece that has the nipple installed in it), is surrounded by wood. Normally, this would be surrounded by and supported by the lock plate (on a front action lock such as this). My guess would be that the lock is off of a muzzleloading shotgun that he utilized on this pistol - either a single barrel or a side by side that this lock was the right hand lock of a pair. The barrel may have been a pistol barrel originally, or a section of an old rifle barrel. Is it rifled? What caliber would you guess it to be?

Regardless of if it is made up of older parts - and I've seen a lot of these "marriages" over the years, he certainly did a very nice job on it. I hope you'll keep it in the family as a keepsake. I would put more of a "sentimental" value on it than a monetary value. It's nice when someone "down the line" has things such as this to fondly remember the man who made it.
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63
bedbugbilly is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 03:35 PM   #6
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Agree with bedbugbilly.
I think the lock is the Right off a shotgun, probably a breecloader because the lock plate does nt reach to the drum and nipple.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 03:47 PM   #7
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Hey, thanks guys for your opinions and thoughts. Those of you that say it has to be "priceless" because my dad made it are absolutely RIGHT. Inside the barrel it is not a smooth bore. Bare w/me folks I know NOTHING about gun parts, please. The barrels interior has 6 very shallow raised ridges. These ridges are about 3/16" wide per ridge. There're evenly machined within the barrels length. The "deeper" grooves are only a few thousands of an inch shallower than the raised ridges. They (grooves) are all straight down the barrels length. The wood is walnut as is the "ram rod". And, sorry I do NOT know the caliber... but would like to. I'll attach some more pictures and one of the rifle he made from an old black powder shotgun from Belgium.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg #2.jpg (238.1 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg #1.jpg (254.1 KB, 59 views)

Last edited by Limitool1; May 17, 2013 at 03:52 PM.
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 03:56 PM   #8
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
It is a parts pistol. Not bad workmanship but stylistically is a zero representing nothing. A keepsake. If you shoot, shoot it. If not put on display.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 04:03 PM   #9
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
I had a person tell me that they thought it was a "kit" once and that may very well be true... but the hammer part has pits and appears to be "old" but is still in very good shape. I watched him shoot it many times and was always so impressed when he did as a child. If it was a kit does anyone think that the lock plate would encompass the nipple area??? I, admit... I am an amateur.
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 04:03 PM   #10
Gaucho Gringo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 366
I like the looks of the rifle. Looks like a one of a kind trigger guard.
__________________
357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8
Gaucho Gringo is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 04:09 PM   #11
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Gaucho Gringo... The trigger guard on rifle (and butt plate) he machined from single pieces of solid brass... Brad
Attached Images
File Type: jpg #12.jpg (259.2 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg #2.jpg (255.8 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by Limitool1; May 17, 2013 at 04:50 PM.
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 04:50 PM   #12
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Doc... Thank you. There are NO OTHER marking on the metal and/or wood whatsoever. The only markings are on the lock plate. "E. THOMAS" and the birds mentioned on the above posts by me. NONE... are on the barrel. I'm kind of thinking it was a parts pistol also but I still have some concerns and would like some more opinions.

Woodnbow... Thank you... I totally agree. I got my areas of expertise (as most men) but I CANNOT rival my father in this arena. Thanks... Brad

Last edited by Limitool1; May 17, 2013 at 04:58 PM.
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 05:04 PM   #13
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
I do not believe it was a kit nor IMHO does it have any kit parts in it. It is definitely one of a kind with a rifled barrel, no rear sight and a shotgun bead up front. It appears to be a .32 and the barrel was probably cut down from a rifle barrel.
Hawg is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 05:49 PM   #14
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 439
I would also point out that the lock is not a Jukar or older CVA lock .. It could be a shotgun lock but its hard to say for sure but I would think so as well .
Being surrounded in would also doesn’t mean anything as for that type of lock , when place on pistols. It would be surrounded in wood . LePage and many other makers to include German pistol makers did just that with their locks . BUT , they also used a better bolster and breech design then the drum bolster you have .
The trigger and trigger guard also seem to be of good quality so if it was a kit gun then it was a better made one .

The stock shape is alittle odd . But not uncommon for kit guns . The transition from the stock to the breech of the barrel is also not brought down . But that’s also common in kits .

But either way , minus some shaping issues , it looks to be a well made piece regardless if it was a kit or made from parts . Your father did a rather nice job
Captchee is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 06:01 PM   #15
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Thanks Captchee... I'm just trying to educate myself on what my father did with this firearm and then I'll move onto another. I'd really like to hear something on the engraving I mentioned above. It has to be a clue if he used parts but I cannot find anything yet.... thanks, Brad
Limitool1 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 06:27 PM   #16
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
The lock is not like those from kits. For one thing, it has only one screw holding it, normal for a shotgun lock which is fitted into the breech, but not for a percussion lock which needs more support. Also, the lockplate is the correct shape for the lock of a break-open shotgun, but not for a percussion gun. In addition, as Bedbugbilly pointed out, wood surrounding the drum is also not what we would see in a percussion pistol.

The engraving is most likely original to the shotguns the locks came from; such engraving was very commonly seen, even on inexpensive guns in the old days.

The workmanship is good and the guns are impressive, but I think value will have to be in memories rather than in any dollar figure.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 07:50 PM   #17
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 439
just a couple quick ones .
single bolt , wood surrounding lock .
again not hard to find Pedersoli offers the Kuchenreuter and Mang in Graz both of which were also originaly built like the below pistols
again not uncommon







just a couple more


here is one of an original Stutzer rifle thats in my collection .
again single bolt and wood surrounding lock it also should be noted that some of the best long range rifles ever made have this type of lock , serounded in wood . to name two more other then this stutzer all one has to do is look to some of the the the Mortimer and Whitworth rifles




need more ?????

also break open sxs locks have a small tab that patrudes fromt he front so that it will lock into the forward part of the reciever

here is a muzzleloading SXS thats being converted to flintlock . notice the lock . if you look in the back of the photo you will see an original with the very same type of locks . that original is a german made SXS dating to 1850 .
also one time in my collection . i assure you that neather have locks that fit to the breech


Now here is the reason I don’t think this is a SXS lock . At least a slim chance of it being one as there is always a possibility .
If you look at the placement of the bolt screw , its forward and in a location that if used on a muzzle loading SXS , would put it through the standing tree . The reason for that is that the up curve of the lock plat matches a cut out in the breech plug and the standing tree drops strait down , which would start at the top angle
Normally that bolt will be up higher and back , not readily visible until the hammer is cocked back or only partly visible with the hammer down . More so on double hammered breech loaders which often require the left hand hammer to be cocked back , so as to expose the lock screw .

Last edited by Captchee; May 17, 2013 at 08:25 PM.
Captchee is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 08:34 PM   #18
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 439
PS.
the engraving is english scroll and was done alot of diffrent firearms to include revolvers
in fact if you look at the pair of LePage pistols i posted , you will see near the very same patern .
Captchee is offline  
Old May 18, 2013, 01:29 AM   #19
swathdiver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: Treasure Coast, Florida
Posts: 335
It's a whatever your Dad's last name was. He likely made it from parts around his shop and loosely based it on a Kentucky pistol to his own creation. Very nice looking pistol!

Did you check to see if it was loaded?

Measure the bore, get some real black powder, olive oil, patches, ball, caps and enjoy what Dad created!
swathdiver is offline  
Old May 18, 2013, 10:15 AM   #20
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
Agree with swathdiver. I suspect your father made it from parts he had laying around. He would have been an interesting man to have met.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 09:59 AM   #21
Limitool1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7
Thanks for the input guys. Yea... it's unloaded. I shot the gun (pistol & rifle) with my dad when I was around 25. Damn... that was 28 YEARS AGO!!!! And I'm not worried about the $$$$ value so much. All of you who says it should be worth more to me are absolutely right. My main inquiry is just figuring out now "what they are" and/or what parts he made and what parts he adapted. into his own configuration. The rifles lock plate came from an old Belgium black powder shotgun and the rest he machined himself. But this pistols lock plate still remains a mystery. The only clues are the ones I mentioned above. That's guys for reviewing.... Brad
Limitool1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10353 seconds with 11 queries