The Old Debate: Cartridge Expectations

[BJung]

Two brothers got me interested in high-power rifles and hunting. The first rifle I bought was Lee Enfield. I scoped it and bought a reloading press to make custom rounds for it. I printed a group less than 1" with it. When I showed it to the brothers, one laughed at it. Both brothers used 7RM rifles. The second brother said, "if he knows how to place the bullet in the right place, that's all that counts".

[Nathan]

This has changed a lot with me....I started with 30’06 because it was dad’s backup rifle. He actually thought it wasn’t powerful enough and bought a 7mm Rem Mag!

In my old age....47, I realize that I don’t like recoil. I don’t like poor accuracy and I don’t like guns I can’t shoot a box or 2 of ammo through! This has reformed my collection too:

Deer: 6.5x55
Short range deer: 350 Legend
Elk: 300 Sherman

Biggest animals on earth: 458 Lott

[RaySendero]

jackstrawIII asked:
So here’s my question: what cartridges do you think are an appropriate “power level” for some of our classic game species?

Deer: 30/30
Elk: 30-06
Moose and Griz: 9.3x62

Been that way for over a century !!!

[jackstrawIII]

Deer: 30/30
Elk: 30-06
Moose and Griz: 9.3x62

Now there’s the kind of answer I was looking for. Ps. Kudos for choosing the 9.3x62. Cool old cartridge.

[Scorch]

Deer die easily, 32-20 used to be entirely adequate until armor plated deer showed up in the 1960s. Now you need at least a 300 Win Mag according to some.
Elk, pretty tough, they need a little more convincing. 338s are pretty persuasive.
Moose are pretty fragile, people kill them with 30-30s. A 30-06 may be more appropriate.
Black bear are pretty fragile, use whatever you got. Friend of mine who guided in UT carried a 357 snubbie.
Grizzly, I don't care if they need convincing or not, they're getting whatever I can stand shooting. Anything that will eat you and roll around in what's left needs something more.

[Double K]

A typical 6.5 creedmoor or 7-08 load produces between 10-12ft pounds of recoil, a typical 30-06 recoils almost twice as much at 19-21lb of recoil energy.
You may experience much less from a 30-06 by using light 150gr. bullets and increasing the weight of the gun, a walnut or laminated stock with big heavy scope and steel rings can easily push the gun weight to 10+ pounds', that combination will produce about 14lbs of recoil.
As I said initially though I don't like to carry a heavy gun or get kicked by 30 caliber lightweight.
IMO 30 calibers or bigger are really more for large game like elk and bears, if for some reason you want to use one gun for everything and hunt big stuff as well that's fine.

[jackstrawIII]

I’ll answer my own question, as far as I can. I hunt in the north east, which means I’ve shot whitetails.... and that’s it. The heaviest cartridge I’ve used is a 358 Winchester. The lightest is the 7.62x39. And let’s be honest, they all died basically the same. All lung shots, none dropped at the shot and none run more than 30 yards. So... not much difference there.

So, with that summary of my “extensive” hunting experience, here’s what I’d want in my hands for the various popular North American species:

Deer/Antelope/Sheep/Carribou/Black Bear - something around the 308/270 type power level
Elk/Moose - something like a 30-06/7mm mag.
Grizz/Bison - something like a 375 H&H would be cool... but I’ve never shot one so I have no idea what I’m talking about.

[jackstrawIII]

Also, several of you guys have been commenting on the topic of recoil. The hardest recoiling gun I’ve ever shot is a 338-06. Maybe 27-28 ft pounds. Not really all that distinguishable from a heavy 30-06 load. It wasn’t pleasant, but wasn’t painful or unmanageable.

How does that compare with something like the 375 H&H or 358 Norma for those who’ve used them?

[Double K]

Not exactly a scrub oak or blow down elk rifle but my 7 short mag barely recoils with a suppressor/ brake on it, the gun is relatively light and is brutal without the can.

[jackstrawIII]

Deer: 6.5x55
Short range deer: 350 Legend
Elk: 300 Sherman

Love your deer choices. I sold almost all my guns this year, but I had to keep a nice 6.5x55 for deer hunting in nice weather.

Why the Sherman over the other more popular 300 mags? Just cuz?

[stagpanther]

How does that compare with something like the 375 H&H or 358 Norma for those who’ve used them?

I don't have either of those but do have a lightweight 375 ruger rifle--slightly faster than the 375 H&H-- with no muzzle device so I figure it's around 45 ftlbs felt recoil with heavier bullets. Hits pretty hard but I hold it differently from other rifles with lower recoil. It's a matter of perspective, a friend of mine who is my same age (north of 60) takes a 416 weatherby magnum on his African hunts--Hawk's table has that one up around 83 ftlbs.

[Scorch]

The first time you shoot a 375 H&H is an eye-opener. They kick but it's a longer, slower kick like a 12 ga magnum. Not at all like a 300 Win Mag or 7 mag that stabs you fast and hard. I enjoy shooting my 375 H&H, whether summer in a t shirt or winter in a heavier coat. I don't shoot it much because I just can't take the shot to the wallet with each trigger pull, they cost $90/box! Reloading eases the pain a bit, but my 7X57 costs less than half as much to load.

[std7mag]

I must be obsolete...
My cartridges sure are at any rate.
Started hunting with the 30-06.
Now i've upgraded to 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 284 Win.
I've still got (2) 280 Rems, my 7mm Rem Mag and i still hunt small game with my 410.
Ok, and turkeys with the 410.

Need to get back to my 7mm-08AI.

[stagpanther]

They kick but it's a longer, slower kick like a 12 ga magnum. Not at all like a 300 Win Mag or 7 mag that stabs you fast and hard.

Good way to put it, I think of it as being hit by a fullback as opposed to taking a fast karate punch.

[Nathan]

Why the Sherman over the other more popular 300 mags? Just cuz?

I know this is splitting hairs, but:
-holds one more round in the mag over a a magnum, 2 more than a WSM
-30-06 plus a bit more (WSM ballistics) ballistics
-shoots 180 -200 gr bullets around 3000 fps
- 40 deg shoulder for all the Ackley benefits....or, at least maximizing volume of the 30-06 case
- great Peterson brass available (280 ai)

Would like to add a 9.3x62, but I don’t hunt that big stuff....might get a Mauser of M70 in that for fun!

[jackstrawIII]

Thanks for the info on the Sherman. Looks like a cool series of cartridges. Will keep in mind for future projects!

[jimbob86]

Deer die easily,

Sometimes ..... most times even .... and then there's the one that piles up, lays on the ground kicking for a solid half minute, and then gets his back legs under him .... and then his front, and runs a mile to the river and jumps in ..... comes out the other side and keeps running .... or that lays there, stone dead to the outside world, and gets up and tosses the first guy to touch him ..... or the one that seems totally unconcerned with multiple major caliber hits ..... the only signs of him being hit are the kugelschlag, the flying hair, and the blood running down his side .... I've killed a lot of deer .... seen as many killed by others .... they all die different .... some easy, some not so easy .... some refuse to admit they are dead for long after the point is uncontestable ....

[jackstrawIII]

kugelschlag

Had to look that one up. For anyone else wondering, it's the sound of the bullet impact on the animal.

Cool word, thanks JimBob. And thanks for the reminder that hunting is anything BUT predictable.

[Japle]

As Jon Sundra said - and I agree with him, "If you need a rifle that's bigger than 7mm, you need a rifle that's bigger than .30 caliber."
When I built my all around prairie-dogs-to-moose rifle a few years ago, I built it on a Remington 700 action chambered in .280AI.
If I need a bigger gun, I'll haul out the .358 Norma Mag or the .450 Marlin.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by Japle

As Jon Sundra said - and I agree with him, "If you need a rifle that's bigger than 7mm, you need a rifle that's bigger than .30 caliber."
When I built my all around prairie-dogs-to-moose rifle a few years ago, I built it on a Remington 700 action chambered in .280AI.
If I need a bigger gun, I'll haul out the .358 Norma Mag or the .450 Marlin.

Just acquired my .280AI last week. I also felt this rifle would be my all-around/anything in North America rifle. I have zeroed it with the only thing on the shelf, and therefore the only brass I could get, which are the Hornady 162 ELD-x. Not my preference, but they'll get me started and leave me with 60 brass.

Japle, might I ask what load you use for the .280AI for prairie-dog sized game? And what twist rate you have?

[Scorch]

Thanks for the info on the Sherman. Looks like a cool series of cartridges.

Basically a revamp of the old Gibbs cartridges, a 30-06 case with the shoulder moved forward (or in this case a 280 Remington case, which is basically a 30-06 case with the shoulder moved forward).

[Japle]

Tallest:

Since I live in Florida, I don't have a prairie dog load worked up. So far, I've only used the AI on hogs and my load is the Speer 160 gr over 55.5 gr of IMR4350 in re-formed Remington .280 cases. Velocity is just under 2900fps.
My rifle has a 20" spiral-fluted Shaw barrel, so my load may be wildly unsuitable for your rifle. Use data from a reliable source (not me!) and work up carefully.

[Tallest]

I certainly will. I have 24" 1 in 8.5" twist Barrel that, thus far, has done really well with 162 grain Hornadys (all I've had a chance to shoot so far). I was wondering how something like 120 grain Ballistic Tip would do, and your post made me think maybe you had worked up something like that. Not a lot of folks go that way with 280AI, and my guess is most who do would be shooting a 1 in 9" or 1 in 10".

[jackstrawIII]

I was wondering how something like 120 grain Ballistic Tip would do

I’ve loaded some 120 Grain Ballistic tips for my buddy’s 7mm08. We don’t have prairie dogs up here, but I do know that they work phenomenally well on whitetail deer.

[Scorch]

I was wondering how something like 120 grain Ballistic Tip would do

When I lived in NV I used to load Hornady 120 gr as varmint bullets in my 7X57, worked spectacularly well on jackrabbits. Out of a 280, I imagine a 120 gr BT would be like a 22-250 when it hits something. I doubt you would get any penetration, just a fine mist.

I must be obsolete...
My cartridges sure are at any rate.

Tell me about it. I have used a 7X57 for the past 45 years, and whenever I tell people I shoot a 7mm, they always think 7 mag.