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March 3, 2018, 05:15 PM | #1 |
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Can a foreigner on a legal work visa rent & shoot at a gun range legally?
Went to the gun range with a lawfully admitted foreigner here on a legit H1B work visa. There was a question if the gun range could legally rent him a gun, or give him possession of it and / or let him shoot it at the range.
I found this on the ATF site: Can an legal immigrant rent a guy for lawful sporting purpose That implies to this (non-lawyer) that he can rent and shoot a gun at a range legally. I also understand that the business has the right to not do business with someone they don't want to. So to avoid a strange situation in the future anyone have a definitive answer? Thanks in advance.
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March 3, 2018, 05:44 PM | #2 |
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Link doesn't work for me. Here in NY they cannot shoot a handgun. Also, a long gun could only be used at the range and not taken off premises.
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March 3, 2018, 05:44 PM | #3 |
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Shops always can use their discretion. But yes they can. Imagine you went overseas to hunt and your gun didn't show up. In some areas you might be out of luck but here you can rent or buy one and get on to the hunt. But many things legal in the U.S. might not be legal elsewhere.
I thought I read somewhere on here about a guy from Canada who hunted and lived in the U.S. for many years and then went back to Canada and the paperwork was more intense to import than selling those guns and buying the same guns again in Canada. Also State law vs. Federal law might come in to play.
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March 3, 2018, 06:38 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Can an alien who enters the United States on a nonimmigrant alien visa rent a firearm for lawful hunting or sporting purposes while in the United States? A nonimmigrant alien that possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States or falls within any of the other exceptions or exemptions that allow nonimmigrant aliens to possess firearms may rent firearms to hunt or to use at a shooting range. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5) and (9), 922(g)(5)(B) and 922(y); 27 CFR 478.99(a) and (c)(5)]
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March 3, 2018, 06:42 PM | #5 |
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What are the "other exceptions or exemptions" referenced in the linked text?
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March 3, 2018, 07:12 PM | #6 | |||
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Quote:
Let's look at current federal law, see 18 USC 922(g)(5): and 18 USC 922(y): The statutes I cited generally prohibit possession of guns or ammunition by aliens present in the United States on a non-immigrant visa. An alien lawfully in the United States on an immigrant visa is not a prohibited person under federal law; and an alien lawfully present in the United States on a non-immigrant visa can come within an exception to the prohibition by getting and maintaining a hunting license.
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March 3, 2018, 07:58 PM | #7 |
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Note the requirement that he have a hunting license.
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March 3, 2018, 10:15 PM | #8 | |
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It seems unloading a mag from a machine gun in Vegas meets the sporting purpose standard. I know, that is just their POLICY and not federal law, but they and quite a few others in Vegas have been doing it and advertising publicly for some time without being hassled by ATFE. Outside that market I would call ahead and see what the range wants as it will be an abnormal request in most areas. |
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March 4, 2018, 12:02 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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March 4, 2018, 07:59 PM | #10 |
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It would depend on the state. In Illinois he could not without a FOID card which he would not have unless applied for. Not sure if he would get one though.
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March 5, 2018, 02:31 PM | #11 |
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Yep, we could sell a handgun to a legal alien but not to a guy from Oklahoma. Go figure.
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March 5, 2018, 03:04 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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March 6, 2018, 12:01 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
Also interesting the FFL was not charged or, it seems license threatened, even though they must have committed a crime in knowingly making the transfer if it was an illegal transfer. I could not find an update on how that case ended up in court. One article claimed the two men plead guilty without any sentencing details. It was a 2015 event, so it very well may not have made it to court yet. The last federal criminal case I was involved with took about three years to make it to court. Uncertain if "sporting purposes" here is the same as in GCA '68 concerning import. |
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March 6, 2018, 02:06 AM | #14 | ||
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Quote:
Folks who commit crimes or are suspected of committing crimes get caught in all sorts of way -- often serendipitously. David Haig wound up being charged with illegal manufacture of ammunition as a result of evidence discovered in the course of the investigation of Paddock's rampage shooting in Las Vegas. Evidence leading to the prosecution of Bruce Abramski was discovered while investigating his possible involvement in another crime. Randall Burchard (U.S. v. Burchard, 580 F.3d 341 (6th Cir., 2009)) was prosecuted and convicted of being a prohibited person in possession of a firearm based in part on evidence discovered during the course of an investigation started by Burchard's complaining that a woman he had picked up had stolen some money from him. These are all examples of someone getting caught because of happenstance -- a confluence of events leading to discovery of inculpatory evidence. And the prisons are full of folks who didn't expect to get caught. Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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March 6, 2018, 10:52 AM | #15 |
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That's what I said, we could sell a handgun to a legal alien but not a citizen of Oklahoma.
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March 6, 2018, 11:14 AM | #16 |
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March 6, 2018, 11:52 AM | #17 | ||
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Quote:
Among other things, as I pointed out, the legal alien must be a resident of Texas. Quote:
Now let's have no more of these off topic posts.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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March 6, 2018, 12:58 PM | #18 |
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A friend who worked in a gun store was once offered a substantial sum by an Arab dip to sell him a gun "off the books." He declined.
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March 8, 2018, 04:48 PM | #19 | |
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If one sells someone Rohypnol under the assumption they intend to use it as treatment for insomnia, then suspects they intend to use it to facilitate a sexual assault and call the police to inform them of the possible crime, do you think they would overlook ones illegal drug sale? |
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March 8, 2018, 07:43 PM | #20 | |||
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Quote:
So everything you wrote is guesswork on your part. But in any case, it doesn't matter, because, among other things:
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And of course you don't know either. The thing is that whether a drug dealer might be prosecuted in connection with a particular transaction will depend on a variety of factors. Again, prosecutors have pretty much complete discretion as to whether or not to prosecute; and they can and have foreborn when it might be in the government's best interest to do so.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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April 4, 2018, 05:41 PM | #21 |
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I'm not an attorney nor did I read this whole thread....BUT, I work for a large French company here in Arkansas and we have tons of French nationals here. One of the first things they do (male and female) is to go to a local gun range and rent/shoot to their hearts content. Some also purchase handguns....but this is Arkansas.....
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April 4, 2018, 08:06 PM | #22 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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April 5, 2018, 06:30 AM | #23 |
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I'm in Florida.
When the snow birds from Canada and UK arrive the first place the head is the range. To my knowledge no range has said no to renting them guns. They love sending pictures back home of themselves with AR's. AFS
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April 5, 2018, 08:39 AM | #24 | |
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Quote:
Jerry |
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April 5, 2018, 10:42 AM | #25 | |
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Quote:
The statutes I cited prohibit possession of guns or ammunition by aliens present in the United States on a non-immigrant visa. However, there is a program under which a foreign national from one of a number of participating countries my enter the United States for a limited period of time without a visa. And I believe that Canadian citizens may also visit the U. S. without a visa. ATF (see Q5 and Q6) has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012. The Visa Waiver Program applies to visitor from most European countries, several Asian countries, and one South American country. It doesn't include any Middle Eastern or African countries. The requirements for a visa are waived only for visits for business or pleasure not to exceed 90 days. And again, I've mentioned prosecutorial discretion. The Federal Government may choose not to vigorously pursue prosecution of some offenses. That doesn't necessarily mean that a federal prosecutor might not decide to pursue prosecution of a particular violation, nor does it mean that a policy not to vigorously pursue prosecution of certain offenses can't be changed without notice at any time.
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