Cimarron No. 3 American

olduser · February 24, 2023, 04:10 PM

Anybody familiar with the top latch on these revolvers? Mine is jammed and the gun will not open. This gun is not a Schofield replica so does not have the frame mounted latch. The latch is supposed to simply push up to unlock the gun. I have not been able to find an exploded view of this type latch. The manual enclosed with the gun shows the Schofield latch. See the attached picture.

Smoke & Recoil · February 24, 2023, 04:21 PM

Try to loosen the screw that goes through the rear sight.

mehavey · February 24, 2023, 06:27 PM

And you have pulled hammer back to the safety notch?

Scorch · February 24, 2023, 08:58 PM

Pull up on the barrel to unload the latch, push the latch up to open. Not rocket science. There is a plunger that compresses a spring that is in the upper frame extension. Put a drop of oil on it if it won't open.

olduser · February 26, 2023, 08:37 PM

Yes, hammer in correct position. Gun had 18 rounds through it before this happened. Lubed the latch, placed hammer in proper position and tried to open the gun, No go. Finally located a schematic under the Uberty web site. Likely failure could be the spring broke and a piece has locked it up. It is under warranty and is going back to Cimmaron. The web sure paints a poor picture of Cimarrons' turn around time. We shall see.

olduser · February 28, 2023, 11:02 PM

This has been the strangest thing. I was packaging the gun to send to Cimarron when my grandson asked what was wrong with it. I picked up the gun to show him how it would not open when it popped open. I found a very small sliver of metal which had somehow worked out of the joint. I had generously oiled the joint and I guess that let it move. The sliver looked like a part of a screw thread' It was tiny. I cancelled the RMA to Cimarron.

mehavey · March 1, 2023, 06:02 AM

Rotten kids.....

always showing off

**Unclenick** · March 1, 2023, 10:43 AM

Kids seem to have an innate ability to embarrass us. In this case, though, it was likely worth it to avoid the lengthy turnaround time.

olduser · March 10, 2023, 05:58 PM

Anybody have any idea what the normal factory specification length of a 45 Colt cylinder is. I noticed when loading this gun that factory loads 1.600" long are almost flush to the cylinder end. The gun also has a cylinder-barrel clearance of 0.007". It looks like if you happened to have any bullet creep caused by recoil it would take very little to tie the gun up. It sure looks like they did make the cylinder just barely long enough for factory ammunition. My Ruger Blackhawk has a cylinder 1.745' long the Cimmaron has 1.556" long.

**44 AMP** · March 10, 2023, 08:36 PM

Unlike the Ruger new model Blackhawk series guns, with frames designed to have plenty of room for 1.6" rounds, the "reproduction" S&W SA breaktops were not.

The originals were never made in .45 Colt, their frames (and cylinders) were simply not long enough. They were made for the .45 Schofield/.45Army round which is shorter.

The makers of the reproductions stretched the frame length just enough to chamber the more practical .45 Colt round but no longer than was felt absolutely necessary. This was for market appeal and at a quick glance the guns don't look different from the originals, unless you see them side by side.

They, literally did make it just barely long enough for factory .45 Colt ammo. Shoot only factory "standard" or reloaded duplicating that. Make sure you use the correct amount of crimp. DO NOT shoot anything heavier than the standard 255gr ammo at blackpowder speeds and pressures.

The break top .45s are big guns but they are NOT strong guns, so keep ammo to the original load levels. They are generally fine for that, unless you get one made by Armi San Marcos!

Scorch · March 10, 2023, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Anybody have any idea what the normal factory specification length of a 45 Colt cylinder is

I've got an original SAA here, cylinder length is 1.606.

Jim Watson · March 11, 2023, 06:24 AM

Quote:

The originals were never made in .45 Colt, their frames (and cylinders) were simply not long enough.

True, but Smith did eventually lengthen the cylinder enough for .44-40.
I don't know what they did to the frame.
The .44-40 did not sell well and the .38-40 hardly at all, so they made some long .44 Russian cylinders to use with the Frontier frames.

olduser · March 11, 2023, 10:48 PM

You are absolutely right 44 AMP. By my measurements a cartridge loaded to a finished length of 1.600" will have 0.023" clearance between the bullet nose and the barrel. That is cutting it close. If you have any creep by the bullet you will tie the gun up. Anybody reloading for one of these (which voids your warranty) will need to pay particular attention to finished length and the bullet crimp.
I wonder if Uberti uses the same dimensions for their single action pistols.

Hawg · March 12, 2023, 04:18 PM

They didn't lengthen the frame. They lengthened the cylinder, pretty much doing away with the cylinder bushing. As a result they don't work well with black powder.

**Unclenick** · March 14, 2023, 07:50 PM

For what it's worth, the SAAMI pressure and velocity test barrel chamber is 1.665 inches long before it gets to a 0.008 inch vent gap that mimics a barrel/cylinder gap, followed by 4.00 inches of barrel. 1.665 inches would be a good cylinder length with a little allowance for a little bullet pull to occur. That said, a heavy gun needs that allowance much less than a light one because the recoil is less sharp.

February 24, 2023, 04:21 PM	#2
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Try to loosen the screw that goes through the rear sight. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

February 24, 2023, 08:58 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Pull up on the barrel to unload the latch, push the latch up to open. Not rocket science. There is a plunger that compresses a spring that is in the upper frame extension. Put a drop of oil on it if it won't open. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

February 28, 2023, 11:02 PM	#6
olduser Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2020 Posts: 100	Issue resolved This has been the strangest thing. I was packaging the gun to send to Cimarron when my grandson asked what was wrong with it. I picked up the gun to show him how it would not open when it popped open. I found a very small sliver of metal which had somehow worked out of the joint. I had generously oiled the joint and I guess that let it move. The sliver looked like a part of a screw thread' It was tiny. I cancelled the RMA to Cimarron.

March 1, 2023, 10:43 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Kids seem to have an innate ability to embarrass us. In this case, though, it was likely worth it to avoid the lengthy turnaround time. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 10, 2023, 05:58 PM	#9
olduser Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2020 Posts: 100	cylinder length Anybody have any idea what the normal factory specification length of a 45 Colt cylinder is. I noticed when loading this gun that factory loads 1.600" long are almost flush to the cylinder end. The gun also has a cylinder-barrel clearance of 0.007". It looks like if you happened to have any bullet creep caused by recoil it would take very little to tie the gun up. It sure looks like they did make the cylinder just barely long enough for factory ammunition. My Ruger Blackhawk has a cylinder 1.745' long the Cimmaron has 1.556" long.

February 24, 2023, 06:27 PM	#3
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	And you have pulled hammer back to the safety notch?

February 26, 2023, 08:37 PM	#5
olduser Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2020 Posts: 100	Yes, hammer in correct position. Gun had 18 rounds through it before this happened. Lubed the latch, placed hammer in proper position and tried to open the gun, No go. Finally located a schematic under the Uberty web site. Likely failure could be the spring broke and a piece has locked it up. It is under warranty and is going back to Cimmaron. The web sure paints a poor picture of Cimarrons' turn around time. We shall see.

March 1, 2023, 06:02 AM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	Rotten kids..... always showing off

March 10, 2023, 08:36 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Unlike the Ruger new model Blackhawk series guns, with frames designed to have plenty of room for 1.6" rounds, the "reproduction" S&W SA breaktops were not. The originals were never made in .45 Colt, their frames (and cylinders) were simply not long enough. They were made for the .45 Schofield/.45Army round which is shorter. The makers of the reproductions stretched the frame length just enough to chamber the more practical .45 Colt round but no longer than was felt absolutely necessary. This was for market appeal and at a quick glance the guns don't look different from the originals, unless you see them side by side. They, literally did make it just barely long enough for factory .45 Colt ammo. Shoot only factory "standard" or reloaded duplicating that. Make sure you use the correct amount of crimp. DO NOT shoot anything heavier than the standard 255gr ammo at blackpowder speeds and pressures. The break top .45s are big guns but they are NOT strong guns, so keep ammo to the original load levels. They are generally fine for that, unless you get one made by Armi San Marcos! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 11, 2023, 10:48 PM	#13
olduser Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2020 Posts: 100	You are absolutely right 44 AMP. By my measurements a cartridge loaded to a finished length of 1.600" will have 0.023" clearance between the bullet nose and the barrel. That is cutting it close. If you have any creep by the bullet you will tie the gun up. Anybody reloading for one of these (which voids your warranty) will need to pay particular attention to finished length and the bullet crimp. I wonder if Uberti uses the same dimensions for their single action pistols.

March 12, 2023, 04:18 PM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	They didn't lengthen the frame. They lengthened the cylinder, pretty much doing away with the cylinder bushing. As a result they don't work well with black powder.

March 14, 2023, 07:50 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	For what it's worth, the SAAMI pressure and velocity test barrel chamber is 1.665 inches long before it gets to a 0.008 inch vent gap that mimics a barrel/cylinder gap, followed by 4.00 inches of barrel. 1.665 inches would be a good cylinder length with a little allowance for a little bullet pull to occur. That said, a heavy gun needs that allowance much less than a light one because the recoil is less sharp. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle