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Old February 20, 2023, 09:56 PM   #1
Nathan
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Hornady Method: Revolver 45 Colt

Well, here it is. I picked a below max load for my 265gr cast bullets in Starline brass under a reasonable load of H110. Instead of loading 5 groups of 5 charge weights. I just loaded one as light as I thought I could be ok with the velocity.

After sight in, I loaded up 18 rounds and shot them. In the end, I hit 1125fps and shot a 2.98” 20 shot group.







I’m basically good with what I see here. I feel like what it is telling me is to work on grip consistency and reshoot after I build some experience with this load. While the sd isn’t great, this is a 5.5” revolver…..probably ok to 50 yards.

Your thoughts? Am I done in 20 rounds?

Last edited by Nathan; February 21, 2023 at 11:16 PM.
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Old February 21, 2023, 04:33 AM   #2
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Nice Black Hawk!
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Old February 21, 2023, 08:57 PM   #3
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Your thoughts? Am I done in 20 rounds?
You're never done in 20 rnds.

Are you shooting rested or offhand??
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Old February 21, 2023, 11:18 PM   #4
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I had measured the groups wrong….heck…that made it 2.98” 20 shot group!

Shooting off sandbags, seated on a bench. Done is not done. Done means make a bunch and shoot it better!

I thought in the last Hornady post they were going to make load development 1000’s of rounds. Seems like 20 and done!
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Old February 22, 2023, 12:19 AM   #5
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Your ES and SD are terrible. If you're going to use moderate loads, go Tier2 with 10gr of Unique or 9gr of Power Pistol. H110 likes full case and hard bullet pulls to get the best performance. I get 1.5" at 25 with a 285gr SWC
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Old February 22, 2023, 02:45 AM   #6
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In "ancient times" an accurate revolver and SHOOTER would shoot 2-2.5" groups at 25yds.

10gr of Unique pushes a 250gr from my 7.5" Blackhawk to just a hair under 1100fps, +/- Heavier slugs & shorter barrels will be a bit slower.

H110 is not my favorite powder for the .45 Colt, but all I shoot from mine are 250gr SWC slugs. Never found any point to anything heavier than that.
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Old February 22, 2023, 06:54 AM   #7
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Your ES and SD are terrible.
Not being argumentative--just curious--what would be (real world for this combo) considered good?
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Old February 22, 2023, 10:25 AM   #8
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If you are a bull's-eye target shooter, you want more precision. A 25-yard slow fire 10-ring is 1.51 inches, a number chosen so a 38 cal pistol has to shoot about 1⅞" inches, gun and shooter errors combined, in order to get a clean score. The X-ring is 0.67", so that same shooter and gun would have to shoot about 1" at 25-yards to clean the X-ring. So figure that target guns try to be built to shoot 1" or better off a rest at 25-yards. Not all succeed, obviously, but it is possible.

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Old February 22, 2023, 12:44 PM   #9
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If you are a bull's-eye target shooter, you want more precision. A 25-yard slow fire 10-ring is 1.51 inches, a number chosen so a 38 cal pistol has to shoot about 1⅞" inches, gun and shooter errors combined, in order to get a clean score. The X-ring is 0.67", so that same shooter and gun would have to shoot about 1" at 25-yards to clean the X-ring. So figure that target guns try to be built to shoot 1" or better off a rest at 25-yards. Not all succeed, obviously, but it is possible.
I'm trying to get some idea of whether or not the same range of SD and ED for a revolver is realistically achievable for what you can get with a rifle--or even if it makes as much difference at close range.
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Old February 22, 2023, 01:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
I'm trying to get some idea of whether or not the same range of SD and ED for a revolver is realistically achievable for what you can get with a rifle--or even if it makes as much difference at close range.
Maybe not.

https://americanhandgunner.com/handg...city-accuracy/
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Old February 22, 2023, 02:03 PM   #11
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Looked at one way, revolvers are actually 6 guns using one common barrel. OK, not exactly, but in a way, and the really amazing thing is how well they work considering its six separate chambers moving into, and out of alignment with the barrel.

If you think your ES and SD is due to the revolver, then shoot your load out of something that isn't a revolver. That should give you a pretty good indication if its the load, or the gun creating the results you got.

Get a Contender in .45 Colt (NOT .45Colt/.410) or use one of the .45 Colt carbines you can get these days, shoot your load and see what changes. I'm pretty sure something will.
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Old February 22, 2023, 02:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by GeauxTide
Your ES and SD are terrible. If you're going to use moderate loads, go Tier2 with 10gr of Unique or 9gr of Power Pistol. H110 likes full case and hard bullet pulls to get the best performance. I get 1.5" at 25 with a 285gr SWC
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 amp
In "ancient times" an accurate revolver and SHOOTER would shoot 2-2.5" groups at 25yds.
As you guys tell me how bad these results are, comparing to 18 shot groups? There are literally 2 shots making this bigger than 2”. I’ll bet most 5 shot groups are 1.5”.

Same with the Sd. This is a 100 yd MAX gun. Is Sd really important?

Drop at 100 yds = -5
-3 Sd = -7; +3 Sd = -3

So 100 yd dispersion is likely 15” …11” from the group projection +4” of Sd dispersion. Probably just need to limit myself to 75 yards until I or the load shoot better. I’m ok with that. I’ll bet I can put a number of these on 12” 100 yd steel!

I see Sd will effect group size, possibly beyond minute of deer, but I also, see that 100 yards is way beyond my 45 Colt
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Old February 22, 2023, 05:37 PM   #13
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Hang on a sec. If I am understanding correctly, your saying Hornady has a method in which, you pick a load under max, in the velocity range you are looking for, and you just load and shoot? I cannot say as I have ever hear anyone recommend you just pick a load and shoot it. I have always been told to work a load up from start. Every gun is an individual, you might not get the velocity listed in the manual and possible different pressures. Especially if you barrel length is different from what ls listed in the manual. Also using different brass and or primers can change things. I cant say is it sounds like a good idea to me.

Hornady also just did a podcast on sample sizes. Synopsis, you should fire 20rnds to get good solid reliable data for both chronograph data and accuracy. heres the podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yZyXwy40JM Granted that is coming from a bullet/ammo maker. But the data they showed seems pretty solid.
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Old February 22, 2023, 07:18 PM   #14
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There are literally 2 shots making this bigger than 2”
The more shots in a group, the greater the statical average will be, simply because the more shots the greater the odds of more "fliers" opening up the group size.

Does this matter?

There is a lot of discussion about how many shots should be considered a group, or the "right" group size. Numbers say the more data points the more accurate it is, and this matters to many people.

Doesn't matter so much, to me. I've always figured the number of shots in a group should be the number of rounds the gun holds, or less if the gun holds a lot. 5rnds is some people's standard, others 10, others more. All depends on what matters to you.

For revolvers, I go with six rounds (all my revolvers hold 6) and that's a group. TO me an 18shot group is not a group, its 3 groups on top of each other, and since there is always some amount of error, three "2 inch" groups, shot on top of each other COULD give you a total group size of 2, 3, 4, or even 6 inches. Does that tell you how accurate your load is? I don't see that. Tells you something about your shooting but not so much about your ammo's capability.

Another point to consider, about group size, bigger bullets can all be overlapping holes and still measure more than smaller ones.

5 .45caliber slugs can make one ragged rip and still be a 2.5" group.

Does that matter to you?
Quote:
This is a 100 yd MAX gun. Is Sd really important?

Drop at 100 yds = -5
-3 Sd = -7; +3 Sd = -3

So 100 yd dispersion is likely 15” …11” from the group projection +4” of Sd dispersion. Probably just need to limit myself to 75 yards until I or the load shoot better. I’m ok with that. I’ll bet I can put a number of these on 12” 100 yd steel!

I see Sd will effect group size, possibly beyond minute of deer, but I also, see that 100 yards is way beyond my 45 Colt
Different shooters, guns and loads will have difference capabilities. Speaking strictly about hitting a steel target (and not a game animal) in my younger days before I got old, weak, and nearly blind, I could regularly ring the 200yd gong on the range shooting my 7.5" .45 Colt Blackhawk, off hand, one handed, and 5 out of six on a bad day. OF course I had a bit of practice, having spent nearly 30 years doing just that for recreation, shooting one bullet and one load, and learning exactly how to hold to do it. And I could do it with other guns as well, after a few sighter shots.

I never really bothered with group sizes and completely ignored SD and ES though I did chrono the load one time and it was avg 1070fps. Since I could hit what I wanted to hit at the range I wanted to hit it, all the rest didn't matter much or any, to me.

Numbers don't lie, they say, but to me they aren't the be all end all and its results down range that matter most to me. A handful of fps variation hardly seems to matter if you hit your intended target where you mean to hit it.

I'm rather old fashioned I guess...
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Old February 22, 2023, 08:12 PM   #15
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Here is some interesting reading for those who want to understand shot count and accuracy;

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/...ve-shot-group/

part 2:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/...s-in-the-group
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Old February 22, 2023, 08:55 PM   #16
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Looks ok to me for that many shots. Usually one shoots 5 shot groups for a 'measurement' for handguns. Don't know about rifle though I see bragging about 3 shot groups abound.

I like to shoot for an ES less than 50fps for 15 shots. Does it matter? I know I feel better when consistency is better. The 25Y or less shooters will probably never notice, but..... BTW, you'll find SD is usually close to 1/3 of the ES. So I always pay more attention to ES.

Over 100fps ES for 15 shots, I feel something is 'wrong'. Either the powder isn't reaching its potential (like under loading a slow powder) or could be old cases where neck tension is not consistent, crimp problem, powder dump not consistent, not right primer for powder, etc. Something is wrong or it just not going to work for the cartridge combination... or checking your shot data and find one flyer causing the large spread out of 15 shots. Throw it out and recompute your ES.
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Old February 22, 2023, 09:10 PM   #17
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Gotta reiterate what 44 AMP said. It would seem to me the more shots you use to determine a "group", the more you go from checking a load to how well you (or your gun) shoot after so many rounds. Especially with a pistol.

If really wanting to minutely check accuracy with a revolver, consider marking the cylinders (non permanently) and only use that chamber repeatedly with empty brass in the other chambers. And no, i didn't come up with that.

Have lived through the beginning of commonly used (miss-used some would say) es and std calculations. Now people have figured out the number of data points to make the calculations relevant, but that is not all that is going on. If you get to rapped up in std's, i hear they have shots to help ya get rid of em.

If that what ya like to do, all the more power to ya.
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Old February 23, 2023, 07:39 AM   #18
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Gotta reiterate what 44 AMP said. It would seem to me the more shots you use to determine a "group", the more you go from checking a load to how well you (or your gun) shoot after so many rounds.
But this can be said for 2 shot groups. Or 3 shot groups, and so on.

More rounds means you get a better picture of the gun/ammo combination.

Enough with the, "I probably pulled those fliers." Fliers are only fliers if they are called and verified fliers. If they aren't called, then they should be considered part of the group that tests the gun/ammo accuracy. In other words, you can't just make up crap because you didn't like what some shots did to the group size.
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Old February 23, 2023, 08:14 AM   #19
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Enough with the, "I probably pulled those fliers." Fliers are only fliers if they are called and verified fliers. If they aren't called, then they should be considered part of the group that tests the gun/ammo accuracy. In other words, you can't just make up crap because you didn't like what some shots did to the group size.
If this is said towards my comments, I totally agree. I own all rounds fired and they are part of the gun, load, shooters results.

That said, I have a lot of handgun shots under my belt. At 25 yards, based on groups from many guns, I doubt my ability to hold a 2” group. Something I see, but not often said is I have an equal likelihood with fliers to push a shot into the group as a flier outside the group.

I’m just saying, I’m going to load up a bunch and confirm again after practice!
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Old February 23, 2023, 09:30 AM   #20
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In other words, you can't just make up crap because you didn't like what some shots did to the group size.
Dangit! I'm going to have to start all over again.
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Old February 23, 2023, 03:05 PM   #21
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If you want a good look at the effect of sample size, this video makes for an interesting discussion.
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Old February 23, 2023, 04:02 PM   #22
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Ha--that's pretty good--like seeing the forest through the trees.
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Old February 23, 2023, 07:26 PM   #23
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Yep. That's what statistics is supposed to help us do. The problem for the human brain is it is designed to search for and find patterns in things, which it is good at and can do even with random data. The old TV cop adage "I don't believe in coincidence" is an excellent example. The late Isaac Asimov pointed out long ago that the world would be a much odder place if there were no coincidences. Nobody could ever win a lottery because a ticket number matching a picked number is a coincidence. No good or bad luck would be possible at all because those are coincidences of events and changing circumstances. Nobody could meet their soul mate.

There's a really good 2014 program on NPR's RadioLab show called Stochasticity, which does an unusually good job of explaining and illustrating how easy it is to see a pattern that's not really a pattern at all or to think something is not random when it actually is. I highly recommend giving it a listen, even if you aren't normally an NPR fan. Always good to have a little healthy skepticism about what we think we are seeing. That makes us try to prove it one way or another.
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Old February 23, 2023, 09:48 PM   #24
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The random generated stuff reminded me of the first Litz books; that was heavy slogging through the trenches getting through them for me. Funny thing is, in my younger days I had an MBA in project management which majored in statistics--I was really good at it but over the years the artistic side of what few brain cells I have left got the better of me (maybe shooting report concussion as well)--and I forgot almost everything. I only remember the 1st commandment from my very first stat 101 class: "Statistics don't prove anything--they only suggest correlation for decision-making."

As for the "meaning in randomness" thing, that probably evolved as a survival mechanism--the word stochastic is one I haven't heard in a long time; I also did a brief stint in neurophysiology and the the nature of the eye's "micro-saccade" as a stochastic input to the brain and served as a survival mechanism was fascinating to me.

PS--funny enough the NPR thing you suggested has a balloon as an example--coincidence?
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Old February 26, 2023, 08:45 AM   #25
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Once you generate your “data” by random number generation, you are no longer talking about shooting. You are talking about number generation.

Shooting does not generate velocities randomly. It is a multi variable process that we are recording velocity data from. The reason each shot differs could be dimensional differences, bullet imbalance, burn rate, bullet weight, charge weight, primer sensitivity, etc…all variables are different each shot, yet we measure velocity and group size to determine what happened!
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