Okay, what's the latest on Front Site?

_Muad'dib_ · August 25, 2010, 02:51 PM

My dad would like me to go with him to Front Site's 4 day defensive handgun training which is being offered for $69 right now. With background and ammo it's going to be higher obviously but we can stay with family in Las Vegas for free. I've read some of the previous threads about the problems with Front Site. What's the latest rumor or fact you know about? Has anyone been there in the last year? What are your thoughts? Did you feel like you were being pushed or pressured alot? Anything at all would help?

The problem is just the $69+ammo,etc is going to be a stretch for him. There's no way he can afford to take a 3 day course for $900 or anything like that. So would Front Sight be a good idea or are there any other options you can recommend?

Thanks guys.

Spammy_H · August 25, 2010, 02:59 PM

I haven't been there, but my understanding is that it is a little training and a lot of heavy sales pitch to buy a lifetime membership in their academy.

Others, please chime in & support/refute

sakeneko · August 25, 2010, 03:30 PM

Yeah. :/ Frontsite is fairly close to me -- I live in Reno. So I investigated them with the idea of taking training there. The owner is apparently into a lot of heavy-handed sales and promotion stuff that looked to me more like Amway than a professional business offering professional-quality training.

I have no opinion on the quality of the training itself, to be clear about this. But I do not trust any organization that uses hard sell techniques, period. IMHO such techniques are manipulative, dishonest, and abusive.

Caboclo · August 25, 2010, 03:37 PM

Been there. The training is very good in spite of the owner. Play it smart and take advantage of the sales, and you can get some great training for nearly nothing. My first time there was on a friend's free buddy pass; once they get your contact info then they'll send you all their special deals; just wait till the right deal comes along and cash in. Case in point, they were offering certificates for any 2 day course for $50 a while back. Just be sure to bring your ammo with you; their prices at the pro shop are a bit high.

Capt. Charlie · August 25, 2010, 08:59 PM

OK folks; the OP asked for feedback, and that does include negative, as well as positive.

About the negative: Keep in mind that some big name instructors are members here. If the criticism remains constructive, this will remain open. Otherwise, abrasive wisecracks will be considered personal attacks on members, and well.... y'all know what happens then

.

Keep this civil and well-balanced,... please!

csmsss · August 25, 2010, 09:00 PM

So...is it constructive to comment upon the unholy amounts of spam they generate?

Capt. Charlie · August 25, 2010, 09:20 PM

C'mon Csmsss; you've been here long enough to know the difference between criticizing actions and personally attacking someone.

You want to say they advertise too much? No problem. Calling the guy a "snake oil salesman"? That's a bit over the top.

csmsss · August 25, 2010, 09:52 PM

Understood. The only interaction I've had with Front Site has been the numerous emails I receive from them. I think their aggressive marketing is actually pretty counterproductive - if you inundate your prospects with communications, they'll soon turn a deaf ear to your approach.

Al Norris · August 25, 2010, 09:56 PM

A couple of years ago, TheBluesMan and I instituted a rule against using invectives in the old L&P forum. That rule was carried over to the new L&CR forum.

Now, in case everyone missed it, it is now a board-wide rule. In particular, it was added to rule #3:

Quote:

3. No spamming, trolling, flaming, invective or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor. ...

I'd advise everyone to simply take the high road at all times.

Back on topic.

I took the 2 day handgun course, many years ago. I learned a heck of a lot. Yes, I had to sit through some pretty hard-core sales pitches during lunch. I ignored it, mostly. I was there to learn and train. My focus was on that.

I have heard from some local folk, that while the training is still top-notch, the sales pitch hasn't gotten better. Their opinion, not mine. I haven't been back to Frontsight.

As for any spam? They didn't have an email addy from me, and after the first year, the mailed spam got less to the point it stopped. I do get other spam emails. I really don't see them, a simple filter takes care of the majority of them.

booker_t · August 26, 2010, 11:14 AM

I suggest you get on their website and check it out.. they have a ton of information.

Dr. Ignatius Piazza, while I have never met him personally, is a very dynamic, intelligent guy. He has a strong vision for the FrontSight Institute. He is a fierce defender of the Constitution and (of course) the 2nd Amendment and right to bear arms. He has a strong tie to history, and firmly believes that the United States of America was founded on marksmanship, going back to the 18th century Minutemen and Colonial Army that won independence from the British. edit: and he has a kickin' 'stache.

The FrontSight business model is, as others have pointed out, "in your face." It's aggressive; they want you to be involved, to participate, to contribute monetarily and otherwise. FrontSight is pushing a side of the gun-rights lobby that Dr. Piazza feels the NRA has neglected, and that is (I hope I get this right) safety, dedication to marksmanship, culture, and comradery. Rather than just push the NRA top-down approach, he is trying to create grassroot support by creating a culture in America that has a positive view of firearms for sport and defense, both personal and national. He rejects the NRA position/defense that firearms are primarily for sport. He wants to acknowledge what firearms are and take it head-on.

Part of that is significant email communication, which can be unsubscribed in about three mouse clicks, or use a junk email address that you only check once every few months (or never). If you want to hear this from the man himself, get on the website and request a copy of their DVD; it's free and fairly well made, you'll get a good overview of what FrontSight is all about.

To the OP's question, the training is high quality, their instructors are professional and experienced. They do training for civilians, youth, police & military, celebrities & public figures. Any level of experience. As another posted said, sit tight and wait for the right deal to come along, then take advantage of what FrontSight has to offer. In the long run, remember that you get out of training as much as you put in.

Hope it helps and stay safe!

**Frank Ettin** · August 26, 2010, 01:05 PM

I haven't been to Front Sight, but I know some folks who have. And they are people who are experienced shooters, who have also trained at other schools and whose opinions I trust.

The general verdict was that the training at Front Sight is very good. So if one has to tolerate some "hard sell" to get good training for a bargain price, I think that the trade off would be worth it.

While Pahrump, NV would not be my first choice of a vacation spot, you can't beat the price (even including having to sit still for a sales pitch or two) for decent training.

aarondhgraham · August 27, 2010, 08:10 AM

I work at a University,,,
Doctorates are more common than fleas.

Si when I see anyone who uses the title of Doctor,,,
I always wonder what in field or area their title was earned.

Not slamming Dr. Ig,,,
Just wondering is all.

.

Jim March · August 27, 2010, 12:13 PM

He's a Chiropractor.

---

I have personal knowledge of this: do NOT get involved in anything remotely like a real estate deal with Piazza. The last people to do that (the "home site" crowd) became very sorry they did.

readyornot · August 29, 2010, 06:33 PM

I took the 4 day defensive handgun course. I thought it was excellent. ONE of those 4 days there was a sales pitch given at lunch. It was optional attendance. I went, it was given to like 300 of us at one time. I could have left at any time with no pressure.

I thought the training was excellent.

bigger hammer · August 29, 2010, 06:56 PM

Those of you who have been to both FS and other schools - can you talk about how the quality of the instruction and the facility (not as important) compare?

Do they insist that you use their stance/position? What do they teach?

BH

Old Wanderer · September 2, 2010, 01:41 AM

I have attended the 4 day defensive handgun, 4 day shotgun, and 2 day edge weapons classes at FS.

Training was very good. Instructors were excellent. I use the facility to do my annual refresher, just to keep in practice. If you come with a background and experience, the instructors will critique you, as well as the 1st time shooter.

Now with the mid week courses starting, it will be better, so I can do a mid week pistol course, then the shotgun course.

I have attended Gun Sight, and was an active IPSC competitor in the 80's. I have also attended the Seattle Firearms Academy shotgun class. (Yes I like my shotgun).

Each school has different takes on how to handle situations. Just like when you study martial arts, take what works for you, adapt it, and perfect it.

Shooting is always good, and it keeps you proficient. Running 600 rounds through your gun, will let you know about yourself and its' reliability. The night shoot, and fun house are good learning tools as well.

Even though I am older than most, I still enjoy doing the FOF classes. It is the one thing I feel that will best equip me to deal with the current environment.

As to the emails, well to me it is not a big deal, sometimes I read them sometimes not.

jim293 · September 3, 2010, 09:38 PM

I just got an e-mail from Front Sight and they now have 4 day tactical training for $89 dollars. I would like to go but I do not want to have to listen to some sales pitch. I just want to learn how to shoot better.

**Frank Ettin** · September 3, 2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim293

I just got an e-mail from Front Sight and they now have 4 day tactical training for $89 dollars. I would like to go but I do not want to have to listen to some sales pitch. I just want to learn how to shoot better.

$89 and a sales pitch is very cheap price to pay for a 4 day class and some decent training. On the other hand, you could take the 5 day class at Gunsite for $1400 (which I've taken, and it's outstanding) or Massad Ayoob's MAG40 for $800 (which, from personal experience, is also excellent and includes a thorough discussion the legal issues).

Tack · September 4, 2010, 01:44 PM

I've trained locally and taken the 4 day defensive handgun course at Front Sight. Both were excellent. My local training was almost 1 on 1. The line coaches were split between about 4 students at FS. I would encourage you to take the Front Sight training. If you buy it at less than $100 dollars for a four day course you have an excellent deal. Most will spend many times that for ammo, food, lodging and travel.

At FS, they asked us to try it with their stance/grip. As long as it is safe you can try what you like, but I'd suggest you try their technique and then decide after the class. Like most well taught classes, FS is an opportunity to learn, and to learn how to train yourself AFTER the class. If you're mature enough to handle a weapon, then you can withstand a hard marketing sell and not be offended.

My $.02
Rob

August 25, 2010, 02:51 PM	#1
_Muad'dib_ Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Posts: 68	Okay, what's the latest on Front Site? My dad would like me to go with him to Front Site's 4 day defensive handgun training which is being offered for $69 right now. With background and ammo it's going to be higher obviously but we can stay with family in Las Vegas for free. I've read some of the previous threads about the problems with Front Site. What's the latest rumor or fact you know about? Has anyone been there in the last year? What are your thoughts? Did you feel like you were being pushed or pressured alot? Anything at all would help? The problem is just the $69+ammo,etc is going to be a stretch for him. There's no way he can afford to take a 3 day course for $900 or anything like that. So would Front Sight be a good idea or are there any other options you can recommend? Thanks guys.

August 25, 2010, 08:59 PM	#5
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	OK folks; the OP asked for feedback, and that does include negative, as well as positive. About the negative: Keep in mind that some big name instructors are members here. If the criticism remains constructive, this will remain open. Otherwise, abrasive wisecracks will be considered personal attacks on members, and well.... y'all know what happens then . Keep this civil and well-balanced,... please! __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

August 25, 2010, 09:20 PM	#7
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	C'mon Csmsss; you've been here long enough to know the difference between criticizing actions and personally attacking someone. You want to say they advertise too much? No problem. Calling the guy a "snake oil salesman"? That's a bit over the top. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

August 26, 2010, 11:14 AM	#10
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	I suggest you get on their website and check it out.. they have a ton of information. Dr. Ignatius Piazza, while I have never met him personally, is a very dynamic, intelligent guy. He has a strong vision for the FrontSight Institute. He is a fierce defender of the Constitution and (of course) the 2nd Amendment and right to bear arms. He has a strong tie to history, and firmly believes that the United States of America was founded on marksmanship, going back to the 18th century Minutemen and Colonial Army that won independence from the British. edit: and he has a kickin' 'stache. The FrontSight business model is, as others have pointed out, "in your face." It's aggressive; they want you to be involved, to participate, to contribute monetarily and otherwise. FrontSight is pushing a side of the gun-rights lobby that Dr. Piazza feels the NRA has neglected, and that is (I hope I get this right) safety, dedication to marksmanship, culture, and comradery. Rather than just push the NRA top-down approach, he is trying to create grassroot support by creating a culture in America that has a positive view of firearms for sport and defense, both personal and national. He rejects the NRA position/defense that firearms are primarily for sport. He wants to acknowledge what firearms are and take it head-on. Part of that is significant email communication, which can be unsubscribed in about three mouse clicks, or use a junk email address that you only check once every few months (or never). If you want to hear this from the man himself, get on the website and request a copy of their DVD; it's free and fairly well made, you'll get a good overview of what FrontSight is all about. To the OP's question, the training is high quality, their instructors are professional and experienced. They do training for civilians, youth, police & military, celebrities & public figures. Any level of experience. As another posted said, sit tight and wait for the right deal to come along, then take advantage of what FrontSight has to offer. In the long run, remember that you get out of training as much as you put in. Hope it helps and stay safe! Last edited by booker_t; August 26, 2010 at 11:23 AM.

August 27, 2010, 08:10 AM	#12
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I wonder what his Doctorate is in?,,, I work at a University,,, Doctorates are more common than fleas. Si when I see anyone who uses the title of Doctor,,, I always wonder what in field or area their title was earned. Not slamming Dr. Ig,,, Just wondering is all. . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

August 25, 2010, 02:59 PM	#2
Spammy_H Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2009 Posts: 220	I haven't been there, but my understanding is that it is a little training and a lot of heavy sales pitch to buy a lifetime membership in their academy. Others, please chime in & support/refute

August 25, 2010, 03:30 PM	#3
sakeneko Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Nevada Posts: 644	Yeah. :/ Frontsite is fairly close to me -- I live in Reno. So I investigated them with the idea of taking training there. The owner is apparently into a lot of heavy-handed sales and promotion stuff that looked to me more like Amway than a professional business offering professional-quality training. I have no opinion on the quality of the training itself, to be clear about this. But I do not trust any organization that uses hard sell techniques, period. IMHO such techniques are manipulative, dishonest, and abusive.

August 25, 2010, 03:37 PM	#4
Caboclo Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2009 Posts: 212	Been there. The training is very good in spite of the owner. Play it smart and take advantage of the sales, and you can get some great training for nearly nothing. My first time there was on a friend's free buddy pass; once they get your contact info then they'll send you all their special deals; just wait till the right deal comes along and cash in. Case in point, they were offering certificates for any 2 day course for $50 a while back. Just be sure to bring your ammo with you; their prices at the pro shop are a bit high.

August 25, 2010, 09:00 PM	#6
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	So...is it constructive to comment upon the unholy amounts of spam they generate?

August 25, 2010, 09:52 PM	#8
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Understood. The only interaction I've had with Front Site has been the numerous emails I receive from them. I think their aggressive marketing is actually pretty counterproductive - if you inundate your prospects with communications, they'll soon turn a deaf ear to your approach.

August 26, 2010, 01:05 PM	#11
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	I haven't been to Front Sight, but I know some folks who have. And they are people who are experienced shooters, who have also trained at other schools and whose opinions I trust. The general verdict was that the training at Front Sight is very good. So if one has to tolerate some "hard sell" to get good training for a bargain price, I think that the trade off would be worth it. While Pahrump, NV would not be my first choice of a vacation spot, you can't beat the price (even including having to sit still for a sales pitch or two) for decent training.

August 27, 2010, 12:13 PM	#13
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	He's a Chiropractor. --- I have personal knowledge of this: do NOT get involved in anything remotely like a real estate deal with Piazza. The last people to do that (the "home site" crowd) became very sorry they did. __________________ Jim March

August 29, 2010, 06:33 PM	#14
readyornot Junior Member Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 1	I took the 4 day defensive handgun course. I thought it was excellent. ONE of those 4 days there was a sales pitch given at lunch. It was optional attendance. I went, it was given to like 300 of us at one time. I could have left at any time with no pressure. I thought the training was excellent.

August 29, 2010, 06:56 PM	#15
bigger hammer Member Join Date: June 1, 1999 Posts: 75	Comparison? Those of you who have been to both FS and other schools - can you talk about how the quality of the instruction and the facility (not as important) compare? Do they insist that you use their stance/position? What do they teach? BH

September 2, 2010, 01:41 AM	#16
Old Wanderer Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 77	I have attended the 4 day defensive handgun, 4 day shotgun, and 2 day edge weapons classes at FS. Training was very good. Instructors were excellent. I use the facility to do my annual refresher, just to keep in practice. If you come with a background and experience, the instructors will critique you, as well as the 1st time shooter. Now with the mid week courses starting, it will be better, so I can do a mid week pistol course, then the shotgun course. I have attended Gun Sight, and was an active IPSC competitor in the 80's. I have also attended the Seattle Firearms Academy shotgun class. (Yes I like my shotgun). Each school has different takes on how to handle situations. Just like when you study martial arts, take what works for you, adapt it, and perfect it. Shooting is always good, and it keeps you proficient. Running 600 rounds through your gun, will let you know about yourself and its' reliability. The night shoot, and fun house are good learning tools as well. Even though I am older than most, I still enjoy doing the FOF classes. It is the one thing I feel that will best equip me to deal with the current environment. As to the emails, well to me it is not a big deal, sometimes I read them sometimes not.

September 3, 2010, 09:38 PM	#17
jim293 Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2010 Posts: 6	I just got an e-mail from Front Sight and they now have 4 day tactical training for $89 dollars. I would like to go but I do not want to have to listen to some sales pitch. I just want to learn how to shoot better.

September 4, 2010, 01:44 PM	#19
Tack Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2010 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 4	my experience at Front Sight I've trained locally and taken the 4 day defensive handgun course at Front Sight. Both were excellent. My local training was almost 1 on 1. The line coaches were split between about 4 students at FS. I would encourage you to take the Front Sight training. If you buy it at less than $100 dollars for a four day course you have an excellent deal. Most will spend many times that for ammo, food, lodging and travel. At FS, they asked us to try it with their stance/grip. As long as it is safe you can try what you like, but I'd suggest you try their technique and then decide after the class. Like most well taught classes, FS is an opportunity to learn, and to learn how to train yourself AFTER the class. If you're mature enough to handle a weapon, then you can withstand a hard marketing sell and not be offended. My $.02 Rob