Call for help ends badly...

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 11:04 AM

I'm not a big proponent of the "scenario" threads, but I ran across this news story and was interested in thoughts in regards to tactics in the following situation...

You get a panicked call from your sister (or mother). She is crying or yelling hysterically that someone is breaking into her home. You are near her home and can respond, probably before police.

http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=5622148

Would you have done anything differently? (other than "not die")

Please ignore the horrible news writing in this story and the fact that the bad guy's name is "Billy Joe." We are not all rednecks...I promise.

threegun · November 2, 2006, 11:31 AM

If anyone in my family was being attacked I would respond, whatever the outcome.

Samurai · November 2, 2006, 11:33 AM

Dumb question. Race over there and do my best to divert whoever is attacking my loved one.

Are you expecting any other answers? Because I have a feeling you're about to get about 5,000 duplicates of essentially the same response.

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 11:57 AM

Samurai,

Quote:

Dumb question.

Very eloquent.

But agreed. I rephrased the question a bit, but will probably still receive an overwhelming duplicate response.

To me it is just a reminder that you must be prepared for the consequences of your actions and train accordingly. I'm sure that's nothing that Samurai has to be reminded of.

Samurai · November 2, 2006, 01:16 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending.

But, since the news story is actually written quite badly (I know, I'm ignoring it), it's hard to tell what the dead guy actually did.

I would probably load both the 1911 and the 9x18 and head to the sister's house as rapidly as possible. I probably would just burst through the door (which is very likely what got this guy killed), and I would very likely run full-face into a firefight. It would be the result of heightened tension and lack of cognitive reasoning due to the panic of knowing that my loved one is in danger.

Now, if I could think about it and plan ahead of time, I would probably go around the back door, or come in through a window, or case the place, or do something stealthy and "SWAT-team-ish." But, my real goal would be to create a diversion to get the attacker's attention focused on me, and away from my sister. I would only need to buy some time until the police showed up. If this involves a shoot-out, then so be it. (One of those opportunities for self-less sacrifice.)

So, in short, I don't think I can second-guess what this guy did, because I have no idea how messed-up my thinking would be if I were placed in that sort of situation. I'd probably go nuts and end up getting myself killed.

oldbillthundercheif · November 2, 2006, 01:27 PM

I knew there was a reason for a non-LEO to have a few flash-bangs around...

It's tough to say for sure from the oddly written story but it sure sounds like that guy could have used a very loud diversion.

Billy-Joe is not a rocket scientist. You would think that your average criminal would know that "self-defense" is not justified if you are in the middle of committing a crime. He just confessed to Felony Murder in furtherance of something-or-other, or whatever your state calls it...

He will fry.

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending.

No sweat. I've read enough of your posts to respect your comments.

I'm struggling to really document my thoughts about this. I suppose it is based around the premise (as you touched on) of the scenario being uber-personal and involving loved-ones. You would run a higher-risk of losing rational thought, despite training.

And the realization that I probably would have done exactly what the dead victim did.

And yes that particular news organization doesn't place much emphasis on their web product. Quite frequently it is impossible to gather even the slightest amount of detail from their reports. As a trained journalist...it is painful to read.

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Billy-Joe is not a rocket scientist.

I wonder how many times that has been said...

No doubt his self-defense argument will fail.

Venison_Jerkey32 · November 2, 2006, 02:16 PM

Like they say, "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure." It would have been nice if the sister had been armed. If she had enough time to call her brother, then she could have defended herself. But, put in the same situation, I would act the same way.

Edit: tydephan, the title of this thread was perfect. It gave enough information and was very clear. 1 million times better than "What would you do?"

Maui19 · November 2, 2006, 02:45 PM

That really was bad news writing.

I think in those situations, you tend to go in with little regard for your personal safety. I could see how easy it would be to walk into a gun.

I'm not sure I would have done anything differently.

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 03:01 PM

Not only bad writing, but inaccurate information as well.

Take a look at the following for what I would assume would be the correct details regarding the incident. It is from a much more credible news organization.

http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs....611020340/1011

A completely different scenario. The guy didn't walk into a gunfight afterall. He calmed the situation down. The two left the house and the gunfight occurred in the street. This would certainly lend more credence to the suspect's "self-defense" argument.

Makes me want to go to the range right now and practice.

Samurai · November 2, 2006, 04:08 PM

Mmmmkay!

In light of this new "take" on the incident, I can safely say that there are A LOT of things I would have done different! The new story makes it sound like a clear-cut case of "'monna go to my car... get my gun... kill ever'body!"

Wow, man. That really brings to light the way a news story can be spun to say whatever the writer wants to say.

tydephan · November 2, 2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Wow, man. That really brings to light the way a news story can be spun to say whatever the writer wants to say.

You got that right.

Do you suppose tumbleweeds bounced across the street while these two stared one another down?

Samurai · November 2, 2006, 04:39 PM

Not likely. I think somebody started talking about somebody else's momma, somebody lifted their shirt to show a pistol nicely held in place by a collection of elastic waistline and excess abdominal flab, shots rang out (*BANG*), and then Joe Dirt stood in the corner yelling, "DANG, MAN!"

I'm pretty sure Hank Hill, Dale, and Boonehour were there, too. And, some excessively large lady likely stood between them with overly-teased hair, blue eyeshadow, and the T-shirt that says, "World's greatest..." whatever...

45RackerTracker · November 2, 2006, 04:40 PM

Authorities said a .38-caliber revolver, believed to be the weapon used in the shooting, was found in the utility shed where Jackson was found.

Ray said Ricks had a 9 mm pistol.

"We found spent cartridges believed to have been shot from both weapons,'' he said.

Ray must have been pretty dumb to leave spent shells behind from his .38 revolver, or it's just another example of misinformation from the press.

bclark1 · November 2, 2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Felony Murder

I love those laws. To hell with anyone who criticizes them. If you're the but-for cause of a death, even if it was completely accidental, or even if you're just rolling with another criminal who you didn't want to hurt someone... Crime doesn't pay and when someone dies in the commission of one we should not minimize the victims' suffering on account of "accident" or anything else.

+1 to every other response here. There's a whole lot I wouldn't do for myself, but there's not one thing I wouldn't do for my family. Bless him for doing his best.

Arizona Fusilier · November 2, 2006, 09:08 PM

Well, I reckon' I would have showed up..........

Though my relatives are smart enough to call 911 and own their own gun.

Big Calhoun · November 3, 2006, 01:44 PM

Not to sound like Superman or anything but if I had been in the same situation, there'd be nothing to prevent me from calling the police AND going over there armed. My cellphone and wireless headset charges by my bed, so you're talking an extra 3 seconds to grab that, start the call, and make my way over.

stephen426 · November 3, 2006, 02:10 PM

I would have to agree that I would rush over regardless of the outcome. I can't count on the police responding quickly enough to stop an attack. Well, actually, where my parents live and where I live, the police could probably respond faster. I would still high tail it over there though. I would definately be on the phone with the police on my way over in case my family member was not able to contact the police before they contacted me. I would also give them my description a description of my car so they would not shoot me instead.

If I arrived the house before the police, I would approach cautiously. If they have a family member at gun point, my surprising them just might cause them to pull the trigger. I doubt bad guys practice safe gun handling practices. I know my familys' houses and would try to identify where they bad guy is while remaining undetected. If I get the drop on the bad guy and he has a weapon on my family member, the bad guy is going to get one in the noggin. I'm not going to have a hostage situation or be forced to give up my gun. Then both of us will probably end up getting killed.

The most important thing is to TRY and remain calm and controlled (I know it will probably be very hard since your family member's life is in danger). If you just rush into situations like the victim did, you will probably just end up dead like he did, and you will be of no use to anyone.

Blackwater OPS · November 3, 2006, 02:58 PM

First off the news story leaves almost all the actual facts to the imagination, but that's ok since it really does not matter anyway.

I would go in, of course, even if I knew how it would probably play out. I'm not going to abandon my family, living a few more years is not worth it.

Tactically speaking, I'm hitting 911 on the phone, throwing on a tac vest and grabbing my 870 on the way out the door(probably while my phone is still on hold with 911). I get pretty pumped up when someone threatens my loved ones, and they might get me but I doubt they could do it before I empty my shotgun.

10 MickeyMouse · November 3, 2006, 11:41 PM

Quote:

You get a panicked call from your sister (or mother). She is crying or yelling hysterically that someone is breaking into her home. You are near her home and can respond, probably before police.

Sister lives 97 miles away and can take care of herself (has CCW and a half-dozen handguns, as well as a 12 gauge O/U and two bolt rilfes).

Mom has one of my .357's and knows how to use it, but is a long way from proficient and may not possess the conviction to squeeze the trigger. If she called, I grab the wife, my AR-10 and her Mini-14 and hit the road at the highest possible speed without loosing control. Should be able to cover that 17 mile stretch in +/-10 minutes. After that, I dunno. Depends on circumstances. Buit I'm certainly not going to be passive.

joebob2000 · November 7, 2006, 05:06 PM

The difference between the stories is one was produced for the evening news, and the other was produced for the morning paper. Newspapers generally check facts and pay writers just a tad more than television sources.

Nevertheless, I would still suspect we aren't hearing the whole story, there was most likely a lot of history between all three and its not a simple 'what would you do if you found yourself in this situation'... the reason being that if you were smart you would have headed it off days or weeks beforehand by distancing yourself and family members from that kind of person, or at least known an armed conflict was inevitable and therefore approached with much more caution.

November 2, 2006, 11:04 AM	#1
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	Call for help ends badly... I'm not a big proponent of the "scenario" threads, but I ran across this news story and was interested in thoughts in regards to tactics in the following situation... You get a panicked call from your sister (or mother). She is crying or yelling hysterically that someone is breaking into her home. You are near her home and can respond, probably before police. http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=5622148 Would you have done anything differently? (other than "not die") Please ignore the horrible news writing in this story and the fact that the bad guy's name is "Billy Joe." We are not all rednecks...I promise. Last edited by tydephan; November 2, 2006 at 11:59 AM.

November 2, 2006, 11:33 AM	#3
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	Dumb question. Race over there and do my best to divert whoever is attacking my loved one. Are you expecting any other answers? Because I have a feeling you're about to get about 5,000 duplicates of essentially the same response. __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

November 2, 2006, 01:16 PM	#5
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending. But, since the news story is actually written quite badly (I know, I'm ignoring it), it's hard to tell what the dead guy actually did. I would probably load both the 1911 and the 9x18 and head to the sister's house as rapidly as possible. I probably would just burst through the door (which is very likely what got this guy killed), and I would very likely run full-face into a firefight. It would be the result of heightened tension and lack of cognitive reasoning due to the panic of knowing that my loved one is in danger. Now, if I could think about it and plan ahead of time, I would probably go around the back door, or come in through a window, or case the place, or do something stealthy and "SWAT-team-ish." But, my real goal would be to create a diversion to get the attacker's attention focused on me, and away from my sister. I would only need to buy some time until the police showed up. If this involves a shoot-out, then so be it. (One of those opportunities for self-less sacrifice.) So, in short, I don't think I can second-guess what this guy did, because I have no idea how messed-up my thinking would be if I were placed in that sort of situation. I'd probably go nuts and end up getting myself killed. __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

November 2, 2006, 02:16 PM	#9
Venison_Jerkey32 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Location: Country of Origin: Texas Posts: 192	Like they say, "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure." It would have been nice if the sister had been armed. If she had enough time to call her brother, then she could have defended herself. But, put in the same situation, I would act the same way. Edit: tydephan, the title of this thread was perfect. It gave enough information and was very clear. 1 million times better than "What would you do?" __________________ Happiness is an empty mag and a pile of hot brass... I may be young, but it is the people of my generation that will decide the future of America.

November 2, 2006, 04:08 PM	#12
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	Mmmmkay! In light of this new "take" on the incident, I can safely say that there are A LOT of things I would have done different! The new story makes it sound like a clear-cut case of "'monna go to my car... get my gun... kill ever'body!" Wow, man. That really brings to light the way a news story can be spun to say whatever the writer wants to say. __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

November 2, 2006, 11:31 AM	#2
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	If anyone in my family was being attacked I would respond, whatever the outcome.

November 2, 2006, 01:27 PM	#6
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	I knew there was a reason for a non-LEO to have a few flash-bangs around... It's tough to say for sure from the oddly written story but it sure sounds like that guy could have used a very loud diversion. Billy-Joe is not a rocket scientist. You would think that your average criminal would know that "self-defense" is not justified if you are in the middle of committing a crime. He just confessed to Felony Murder in furtherance of something-or-other, or whatever your state calls it... He will fry.

November 2, 2006, 02:45 PM	#10
Maui19 Member Join Date: March 8, 2006 Posts: 41	That really was bad news writing. I think in those situations, you tend to go in with little regard for your personal safety. I could see how easy it would be to walk into a gun. I'm not sure I would have done anything differently.

November 2, 2006, 03:01 PM	#11
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	Not only bad writing, but inaccurate information as well. Take a look at the following for what I would assume would be the correct details regarding the incident. It is from a much more credible news organization. http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs....611020340/1011 A completely different scenario. The guy didn't walk into a gunfight afterall. He calmed the situation down. The two left the house and the gunfight occurred in the street. This would certainly lend more credence to the suspect's "self-defense" argument. Makes me want to go to the range right now and practice.

November 2, 2006, 04:39 PM	#14
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	Not likely. I think somebody started talking about somebody else's momma, somebody lifted their shirt to show a pistol nicely held in place by a collection of elastic waistline and excess abdominal flab, shots rang out (BANG), and then Joe Dirt stood in the corner yelling, "DANG, MAN!" I'm pretty sure Hank Hill, Dale, and Boonehour were there, too. And, some excessively large lady likely stood between them with overly-teased hair, blue eyeshadow, and the T-shirt that says, "World's greatest..." whatever... __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

November 2, 2006, 04:40 PM	#15
45RackerTracker Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Authorities said a .38-caliber revolver, believed to be the weapon used in the shooting, was found in the utility shed where Jackson was found. Ray said Ricks had a 9 mm pistol. "We found spent cartridges believed to have been shot from both weapons,'' he said. Ray must have been pretty dumb to leave spent shells behind from his .38 revolver, or it's just another example of misinformation from the press. __________________ ------------

November 2, 2006, 09:08 PM	#17
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	Well, I reckon' I would have showed up.......... Though my relatives are smart enough to call 911 and own their own gun.

November 3, 2006, 01:44 PM	#18
Big Calhoun Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Posts: 213	Not to sound like Superman or anything but if I had been in the same situation, there'd be nothing to prevent me from calling the police AND going over there armed. My cellphone and wireless headset charges by my bed, so you're talking an extra 3 seconds to grab that, start the call, and make my way over. __________________ Beretta 96FS :: HK USP Tatical :: Springfield XD45 :: Kimber Compact Stainless II :: HK P2000 SK

November 3, 2006, 02:10 PM	#19
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I would have to agree that I would rush over regardless of the outcome. I can't count on the police responding quickly enough to stop an attack. Well, actually, where my parents live and where I live, the police could probably respond faster. I would still high tail it over there though. I would definately be on the phone with the police on my way over in case my family member was not able to contact the police before they contacted me. I would also give them my description a description of my car so they would not shoot me instead. If I arrived the house before the police, I would approach cautiously. If they have a family member at gun point, my surprising them just might cause them to pull the trigger. I doubt bad guys practice safe gun handling practices. I know my familys' houses and would try to identify where they bad guy is while remaining undetected. If I get the drop on the bad guy and he has a weapon on my family member, the bad guy is going to get one in the noggin. I'm not going to have a hostage situation or be forced to give up my gun. Then both of us will probably end up getting killed. The most important thing is to TRY and remain calm and controlled (I know it will probably be very hard since your family member's life is in danger). If you just rush into situations like the victim did, you will probably just end up dead like he did, and you will be of no use to anyone. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

November 3, 2006, 02:58 PM	#20
Blackwater OPS Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,152	First off the news story leaves almost all the actual facts to the imagination, but that's ok since it really does not matter anyway. I would go in, of course, even if I knew how it would probably play out. I'm not going to abandon my family, living a few more years is not worth it. Tactically speaking, I'm hitting 911 on the phone, throwing on a tac vest and grabbing my 870 on the way out the door(probably while my phone is still on hold with 911). I get pretty pumped up when someone threatens my loved ones, and they might get me but I doubt they could do it before I empty my shotgun. __________________ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell Died 9/1/2005 and the best DS ever MSG Matthew Ritz Died 11.23.2005 matthewritz.com For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know. (\__/) (='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny! (")_(")

November 7, 2006, 05:06 PM	#22
joebob2000 Member Join Date: March 12, 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 28	The difference between the stories is one was produced for the evening news, and the other was produced for the morning paper. Newspapers generally check facts and pay writers just a tad more than television sources. Nevertheless, I would still suspect we aren't hearing the whole story, there was most likely a lot of history between all three and its not a simple 'what would you do if you found yourself in this situation'... the reason being that if you were smart you would have headed it off days or weeks beforehand by distancing yourself and family members from that kind of person, or at least known an armed conflict was inevitable and therefore approached with much more caution.