This poor woman is being demonized for shooting a lion legally

[huntinaz]

True story: I'm leaving now to go kill a few turkeys for my civilized friend/coworker because she can't bring herself to do it. Then we're having dinner (not the turkeys). I will not enjoy the slaughter at all, but I don't mind it either. I'm not going to cry or lose my appetite for dinner.

Take those same turkey and turn them lose in the wild and have them be wary and have them run from me, and I'll buy a tag and get up early to go hunt them and be sincerely happy if I am able to kill one. It'd be a trophy.

Genetics allow me to enjoy the chase. I don't believe it's wrong. I too live in the artificial environment humans have created to eliminate most of nature's hardships, called civilization.

[Pond, James Pond]

I meant plain as in regular

I thought plain as in geographic feature characterised by big flat expanse...

[Mainah]

I've been to Africa, I've seen lions in the wild. I would not choose to travel great distances to harvest an animal. That's just my choice.

However, she did post her kill on a social media site. That's another, and different decision. It's up to her to deal with the consequences.

[leadcounsel]

thought you were liberals (and the real meaning of liberal not the slur used in the US.) how about you are fee to do whatever as long as you don't hurt anybody else?

Yep, I believe fully in freedoms that don't infringe on my life, liberty, and happiness.

Yet when 'overharvesting' or 'sport hunting' or whatnot eliminate Lions, Tigers, Apes, Whales, etc etc etc so that I and my kids and future generations cannot enjoy them, then that is a problem.

Why not just hunt them, take a few nice pictures or videos, and leave it for another person to do likewise? Seems equally rewarding, and a lot more holistic.

Here are 13 examples of probably hundred of creatures I will never be able to see or enjoy due to the jerks of previous generations that selfishly killed for sport.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...ssenger-pigeon

I'll also add that I will probably never see a lot of animals that have seriously depleted numbers, like wolves, for the same reasons.

So go enjoy your sport hunts, just know that someday, somewhere, someone may not be able to see or enjoy that beautiful creature you just whimsically ended it's existence.

I respect life. Apparently some people don't. And I get so angry at the selfish previous humans who so thoughtlessly murdered these creatures by the millions for little reason. It's a shameful dark chapter in human history, much like the slaughter and stealing of the United States from the 'subhuman' native Americans... or enslavement of minorities... more very dark chapters from unenlightened human beings who simply do not 'get it.'

And someday, things like Apes and Lions and such will be figments of videos and history books and pictures and future generations can thank all of the jerks of modern eras for whipping them off the earth.

Life is precious.

[BigD_in_FL]

Yet when 'overharvesting' or 'sport hunting' or whatnot eliminate Lions, Tigers, Apes, Whales, etc etc etc so that I and my kids and future generations cannot enjoy them, then that is a problem.

Except that legal hunting is not doing any of that depredation; poaching might be, but not the legal, sanctioned hunting as determined by educated game management folks in that country and not by some emotionally charged bystander in another country

[Art Eatman]

"Yet when 'overharvesting' or 'sport hunting' or whatnot eliminate Lions, Tigers, Apes, Whales..."

"Hunters" and "lions" fit in the same subject area, but sport hunting has zilch to do with tigers, apes and whales. Don't drag in irrelevancies.

Bison? The eradication was deliberate government policy "...to destroy the commissary of the plains Indians". War Department quote. No connection with hunting as we know it.

Pen-raised lion? Never wild? Sorta makes the whole thread a waste of bandwidth.

[JohnKSa]

Here are 13 examples of probably hundred of creatures I will never be able to see or enjoy due to the jerks of previous generations that selfishly killed for sport.

While those animals are now extinct, it is more than just slightly misleading to state that sport hunting/killing for sport is the cause for their extinction.

The Dodo's demise was primarily the result of being killed for food and depredated by domestic animals and invasive species for which it had no defenses.

Passenger pigeons were killed primarily for food and for animal feed--often in large quantities at night. Sport hunting was not a significant factor.

Tasmanian Tigers were killed off primarily because bounties were offered due to the perception that they were depredating livestock. In other words, they were intentionally killed off, not inadvertently sport hunted to extinction.

Auks were a food source, used for fishing bait and as a source of down. Sport hunting is not recorded as being a factor in their extinction.

The quagga were hunted for meat and for their skins, there is no indication that sport hunting was a significant factor in their extinction. Furthermore, they are now known to be a subspecies of the Plains Zebra and it may be possible to revive them via selective breeding of existing species.

The Falkland Island wolf, like the Tasmanian Tiger was the target of an intentional effort to kill it off since it was considered a threat to domestic livestock.

The Zanzibar leopard was killed off (according to your link) due to a belief among locals that these cats are kept by witches and sent by them to cause harm.

Caribbean Monk Seals died off because they were hunted for their oil and because their food sources were eliminated by overfishing. Not due sport hunting.

The Carolina Parakeet was killed for its plumage, not for sport.

The Sea Mink was hunted to extinction for its fur, not for sport.

Stellar's Sea Cow was hunted for food and for their fat.

It does appear that sport hunting played a significant role in the demise of the Atlas Bear, the Toolache Wallaby which was killed for sport as well as for its fur and the Bubal Hartebeest which was hunted for sport and for meat.

Basically, sport hunting played a significant part in only 3 out of the 14 extinctions on the list.

Ironically, several of the species you list as being killed for sport were INTENTIONALLY killed off. That's ironic because sport hunting has been shown to be an excellent method for preventing eradication campaigns because it demonstrates to the locals that the animals have a tangible value to the local economy if left alone. That makes them willing to put up with depredation of livestock and even some level of personal danger whereas they would otherwise attempt to eradicate the problem species.

For similar reasons, sport hunting can also reduce losses due to poaching.

[Deja vu]

Do you think a lion would care if it killed a human? Even if it was the last human? We evolved/where created the same as the lion. I dont see why we should hold our selves to a higher standard.

In nature when predators meet often it ends in the death of one of the predators at the very least one is displaced. We as humans are just another predator on this rock called earth.

If the others of our species say its ok then its ok. In the end we answer to our pack rules just as other predators that hunt in packs.

Not every animal that goes extinct is because of humans. Even if it was are humans not part of nature? What if nature created the super predator called humans to cull the less fit animals from the planet? Why do we insist that things humans do are not part of nature? Nature created us just as it did that lion.

[Deja vu]

The instinct to hunt and kill is hard wired in humans just like it is in all predators. We can pretend it's not, but that's all it would be. Furthermore, the instinct does not kick in only when one has an empty belly. It's always there. Watch dogs running a bear, wolves chasing an elk, lions closing in on a zebra or a human stalking a deer. They love it. It's fun. It satisfies primal instincts.

I shoot animals for food, and 90% of my red meat intake is from game I've killed. But make no mistake, I love hunting those animals. I could spend less on guns, gas, tags and equipment and more on meat from the store but I don't because that's not fun to me. That's boring and I don't know what I'm eating. It's not perverse, it just the way it works. The instinct to hunt is not bred out of me, and I'm not ashamed of it. If I didn't eat the animals I might enjoy it less, but I am pretty sure I'd still enjoy it because it's my nature as a human male to do so. I don't have sex only when I need a baby, and I don't hunt only when my belly is growling. That's the truth.

I think the raising, slaughtering and butchering animals away from the eyes of society so that people become out of touch with the way things work is a decay of values and leads to a hollow society. Killing is part of life, always has been. Humans are at the top of the pyramid. Bummer for the lions. We are smart enough however to not wipe out species if we try. Wildlife preservation by sport hunters is a prime example. Some think that is perverse but it is reality. Folks should not confuse sport hunting with poaching for profit. They are different. And let's not mistake what I am saying as a defense for poaching animals for profit to the point of extinction.

I agree 100%

Humans evolved / where created to hunt. I have seen wolves kill more sheep than they can eat and keep on killing... While I am not a wolf and cant speak for them I would guess the reason is they enjoy it.

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Originally Posted by Wyoredman

You didn't read the article!

The article was exactly, 100%, completely about this exact issue. As a matter of fact, it is about the exact case the OP mentioned in his opening thread!

Just watching the video and not reading the article is lazy!

I did read the article, and watched the video. And as I said the article and video were used to justify Bachman's hunt, but the points raised had little to do with the facts at hand. The article raised the same points some have made here, that trophy hunting brings money to the local economy and gives the local population incentive to preserve the species instead of poaching them. But that is completely inapplicable to this hunt, since in the story I linked to earlier the managers of the reserve where her hunt took place admitted there were in fact no wild lions in the area whatsoever. There are no local lion populations for the local population to protect.

The video was cool, but the connection to Bachman's hunt was tangential at best.

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Originally Posted by Husqvarna

who are you to judge what someone feels pride in?

for a bunch of gun enthusiast I am surprised about how non allowing you guys are.

thought you were liberals (and the real meaning of liberal not the slur used in the US.) how about you are fee to do whatever as long as you don't hurt anybody else?

Melissa deserves to feel pride for her career.

it takes more than money to get up close with a lion like that, and so what if she feels happy, as a proper hunter she probably is glad that she got the animal quickly so it didn't have to suffer. I know I am

I'm a person endowed with freedom of speech and the freedom to give my opinions. A gun enthusiast can criticize what Bachman did just as a football (American, not soccer ) enthusiast can express disgust at the wide receiver doing an animated touchdown dance as if he'd just won the Super Bowl when his team is still down by 3 touchdowns with 1 minute left on the clock.

[shortwave]

Pen-raised lion? Never wild? Sorta makes the whole thread a waste of bandwidth.

Agree!

Don't forget 'legal' in Africa as well.

[Doc Intrepid]

I'm a hunter. I love to go hunting.

When I or one of my buddies gets an animal, we're pleased because we look forward to good eating. But the animal is icing on the cake - its actually being out in the high country for a few weeks that makes the experience so enjoyable. We're all equally militant in our enjoyment of the entire range of hunting experiences.

What we don't do, however, is take photos of ourselves with the animals we kill and post those photos on social media.

There is nothing wrong with taking photos of a trophy animal, and even posting them in an environment where those photos would logically be shared, such as a hunting forum, or even on a television program designed to appeal to hunters.

But widespread opposition to hunting among certain social groups; the high-profile hysterics of fringe lunatic organizations such as PETA; and the realization that whipping up media firestorms generally offers no clear win for hunters is well-recognized. No one could claim to be surprised by these consequences. They would preclude us from deliberately provoking anti-hunting sentiment by posting provocative photos on Facebook. There is a certain "nyaah nyaah boo yah" quality to such acts. The results are tiresomely predictable. Posting hunting photos on social media is almost daring oppositional characters to screech loudly and hurl dung.

Why do that?

And if you DO make a decision to do it, ...deal with the consequences.

Don't sit there and pretend that you're shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!, to discover that anti-hunters are not amused.

[leadcounsel]

Do you think a lion would care if it killed a human? Even if it was the last human? We evolved/where created the same as the lion. I dont see why we should hold our selves to a higher standard.

The instinct to hunt and kill is hard wired in humans

We are not allowed to act on many animal instincts. Every watch animals mate in nature. Not voluntary for the female and would be a crime for humans. Animals take/steal from each other, instinctually. Etc. etc.

So, based on this, we should ignore the fact that we are intelligent, logical and emotional creatures capable of higher thought. We should just kill because it's in our nature. Baloney. And anyone that buys into this should also set aside any weaponry created with higher thought and go stalk and kill game without the aid of modern tools, like warm clothing, binoculars, maps, off road vehicles, scents, and of course guns or bows.

We evolved. Lions did not. Bears did not.

A REAL hunter might fashion a spear and go toe to with a lion or bear for 'sport.' Let's see just how much fun the 'sport' becomes when it takes more than holding steady with your $1000 zeroed rifle from 200 yards away. I'm purposefully boiling it down to what it really is. Going to a location, laying in wait, and murdering some unsuspecting beautiful creature because it was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Super brave. Anyone who tells himself otherwise is kidding himself. What percent of the time does the animal actually 'win' the sport? .00000001? Call it what it is. Cold blooded murder for kicks.

A sport is a fair contest where either party can win. How much sport is there, when one contestant literally has nothing at stake and all the chips and advantages are held by the 'hunter'? Like a boxer beating up on a little kid. Or a pro-football team playing a highshool team. Yeah, real 'sporting.' Go risk your butt, then call it a sport. Take on that lion with your bare hands, or a spear. Then call it a sport.

Another point, this is like the business that dumps poison into the river destroying fish. They have their reasons too. All of which are selfish baloney. "The fish wouldn't care if they poisoned all the humans." What nonsense.

WE humans are the custodians of our world, and that includes animals. Yes we are designed to hunt, forage, eat meat and plants. I understand and am a carnivore and omnivore. I am not naïve and I understand where food comes from - typically horrible, disease filled slaughter houses. I believe in the humane treatment of even livestock and always try to buy free range when I can. It's the responsible thing to do.

What I do not participate in, or endorse, is the barbaric practices of torturing or murdering animals, including sport dog fighting, pouring gas on cats and lighting them on fire, or going out and shooting prarie dogs for kicks, or going and shooting .0001 percent of the remaining lions that exist.

I'm sure to the hoodrat, dog fighting is fun too. Can someone here explain how that's different than sport hunting. You're killing something you don't value, for your jollys. And for anyone that says being shot with a rifle doesn't 'hurt,' maybe you ought to try it first. Or the fear, terror, and pain of dying for a couple minutes after it's shot.

[Dragline45]

Trophy hunting is a sick and cruel sport, especially something as majestic as a lion. You are taking something that is at the top of it's food chain in it's environment out with a single shot of a rifle while hiding in cover. Real sporting like, they should be proud.

The instinct to hunt and kill is hard wired in humans

That instinct was lost long ago, except perhaps for serial killers.

Edit: Humans have far evolved from it being our instinct to hunt and kill. I stand by what I said, if your human instinct is to kill, and it's hard wired in you, you are more than likely a serial killer. Serial killers have an uncontrollable urge to kill and are compelled to do so, and cannot fulfill that urge until they do kill. This is FAR different than choosing to hunt on your own terms, whether it for sport, to put food on the table, or a combination of both. You are not compelled to hunt, you choose to. Big difference.

[Ruger480]

To suggest that any animal is defenseless is tantamount to claiming that Gods work in creating that creature was sub-par. ALL animals have the ability to evade danger, whether it is by superior eye sight or elevated hearing and olfactory senses. As a result of these attributes, any animal harvested from its natural environment is a trophy. Every one.
As to how often the animal "wins", you should check out the percentage of tags filled/success rate for any state, any season with any weapon.
To quote an old adage: That's why they call it hunting, not killing.

[shortwave]

Sooo.....leadcounsel

Is it safe to say that you fall into the anti-hunting crowd?

That instinct was lost long ago, except perhaps for serial killers

No, thankfully there's a few of us left that that instinct hasn't been bred out of us yet. And we're not serial killers.

PS. This thread lasted a long time but sure went south fairly quickly.

[huntinaz]

That instinct was lost long ago, except perhaps for serial killers.

Obviously

Once we start comparing hunters to serial killers, I'm afraid I can no longer be part of the conversation.

[Deja vu]

We are not allowed to act on many animal instincts. Every watch animals mate in nature. Not voluntary for the female and would be a crime for humans. Animals take/steal from each other, instinctually. Etc. etc.

So, based on this, we should ignore the fact that we are intelligent, logical and emotional creatures capable of higher thought. We should just kill because it's in our nature. Baloney. And anyone that buys into this should also set aside any weaponry created with higher thought and go stalk and kill game without the aid of modern tools, like warm clothing, binoculars, maps, off road vehicles, scents, and of course guns or bows.

We evolved. Lions did not. Bears did not.

A REAL hunter might fashion a spear and go toe to with a lion or bear for 'sport.' Let's see just how much fun the 'sport' becomes when it takes more than holding steady with your $1000 zeroed rifle from 200 yards away. I'm purposefully boiling it down to what it really is. Going to a location, laying in wait, and murdering some unsuspecting beautiful creature because it was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Super brave. Anyone who tells himself otherwise is kidding himself. What percent of the time does the animal actually 'win' the sport? .00000001? Call it what it is. Cold blooded murder for kicks.

A sport is a fair contest where either party can win. How much sport is there, when one contestant literally has nothing at stake and all the chips and advantages are held by the 'hunter'? Like a boxer beating up on a little kid. Or a pro-football team playing a highshool team. Yeah, real 'sporting.' Go risk your butt, then call it a sport. Take on that lion with your bare hands, or a spear. Then call it a sport.

Another point, this is like the business that dumps poison into the river destroying fish. They have their reasons too. All of which are selfish baloney. "The fish wouldn't care if they poisoned all the humans." What nonsense.

.

See this is where I dissagree.I think we dont do these things because our "pack" says we dont and is prepaird to do what it takes to stop it... I dont think evolution plays a roll in it. Sorry my spell check is down.

[Dragline45]

Once we start comparing hunters to serial killers, I'm afraid I can no longer be part of the conversation.

No, thankfully there's a few of us left that that instinct hasn't been bred out of us yet. And we're not serial killers.

Just because one chooses to hunt, does not mean it is human instinct and that they are compelled to do so. Twist my words around all you want, but I was in no way implying everyone that hunts is a serial killer, that was pretty obvious.

The initial comment.

The instinct to hunt and kill is hard wired in humans

This is absolute BS. Humans have far evolved from it being our instinct to hunt and kill. I stand by what I said, if your human instinct is to kill, and it's hard wired in you, you are more than likely a serial killer. Serial killers have an uncontrollable urge to kill and are compelled to do so, and cannot fulfill that urge until they do kill. This is FAR different than choosing to hunt on your own terms, whether it for sport, to put food on the table, or a combination of both. You are not compelled to hunt, you choose to. Big difference, so again, please don't twist my words around.

[leadcounsel]

The instinct to hunt and kill is hard wired in humans

I disagree. Humans are hard wired to breath. Eat. Defecate. Sleep. Mate. Perhaps some other things. Killing isn't one of them. Most humans don't enjoy killing and actually are repelled by it. Most people would not want to watch something killed, nor would they want to do it themselves.

I'm in that crowd. I kill only when absolutely necessary and I take no pleasure in it. I eat everything on my plate that was killed because I realize the sacrifice that an animal made, even that last shrimp or bite of steak, because I know that something died to provide me with food.

[Sarge]

Oh well... I once got told I was going straight to Hell (do not pass GO, do NOT collect two hunnerd dollars) for killing off a bunch of feral cats that had infested the farm.

[Husqvarna]

Yep, I believe fully in freedoms that don't infringe on my life, liberty, and happiness.

Yet when 'overharvesting' or 'sport hunting' or whatnot eliminate Lions, Tigers, Apes, Whales, etc etc etc so that I and my kids and future generations cannot enjoy them, then that is a problem.

overharvesting and sport hunting isn't the same thing, might have been in the long gone past but not nowadays. we also want our kids and grandkids to be able to enjoy them aka hunt them

Why not just hunt them, take a few nice pictures or videos, and leave it for another person to do likewise? Seems equally rewarding, and a lot more holistic.

Becuase people aren't paying the money to just take pictures, I have done it and enjoyed it but still dream of hunting in africa

The beauty about hunting is that it is a renawble source

Here are 13 examples of probably hundred of creatures I will never be able to see or enjoy due to the jerks of previous generations that selfishly killed for sport.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...ssenger-pigeon

I'll also add that I will probably never see a lot of animals that have seriously depleted numbers, like wolves, for the same reasons.

wolves aren't endangered and they hurt the liberty of people in the countryside severly.

pretty easy to see if you are out there in the woods. but as always the people most anti are city dwellers... amirite?

they were hunted to near depletion for a reason, today they can only survive in big untouched areas without people

[Husqvarna]

Oh well... I once got told I was going straight to Hell (do not pass GO, do NOT collect two hunnerd dollars) for killing off a bunch of feral cats that had infested the farm

people doesn't seem to get how much feral cats affect the enviroment.

shows poor animal husbandry to, letting your cats roam free, breed free and **** on my lawn! I have to clean my sons sandbox before he gets to play there

since I borrowed a mates german jagdterrier it has gotten better

[shortwave]

Oh well... I once got told I was going straight to Hell (do not pass GO, do NOT collect two hunnerd dollars) for killing off a bunch of feral cats that had infested the farm

Well Sarge,

If killin feral cats is gonna send you to hell, I'll probably be sittin right next to ya.

Neither Feral cats nor dogs last too long around these parts.

FWIW...I don't eat em after I kill em either...sooo does that make me liken to a murder or serial killer?

Yep, I believe fully in freedoms that don't infringe on my life, liberty, and happiness.

leadcounsel

Can you please explain how Bachman's actions in Africa infringed on your life, liberty and happiness here in the US?