First load issue...

resotek · September 1, 2008, 12:03 PM

I need help from you gurus out there. I have just complete loading my first handload ever for my 243 WIN. All was well until it was time to seat the bullet. I'm using W760 powder and Barnes TSX 85 gr. bullets and the following data from Hodgdon: 85 GR BAR XBTC, 2.560", W760, 42.0.

All was well until I tried to seat the bullet to 2.560". That's when my redding seating die bottomed out. This seemed very wrong to me, so I looked at the Barnes data which lists the OAL at 2.645". I seated to this depth, but I'm worried I still have a problem. Any advise appreciated.

TIA!

Zombie Steve · September 1, 2008, 12:16 PM

I'm confused. Your bullet seater is all the way down? The die itself doesn't have any room to move down? Are you going to crimp into that cannelure?

I don't have any Redding dies, but if you're running out of room adjusting the bullet seater, you probably have more room to adjust down the die.

tom234 · September 1, 2008, 12:30 PM

I agree with Steve. I've never had any problems with my RCBS dies. How much clearance do you have between the bottom of your die and the shell plate/shell holder ?

resotek · September 1, 2008, 12:47 PM

The bullet seating die was adjusted according to the redding instructions.

1. Ram in full up position and die screwed down until contact with the shell holder.
2. Back off die one turn and lock down.
3. Bullet depth adjustment backed out.
4. Test seat and adjust until seating depth (OAL) is correct.

The problem is I bottomed out the depth adjustment before getting to 2.56" OAL. Hence, I used the 2.645" OAL number from Barnes. Also, to answer your question, I had not planned to crimp into the cannelure, but that's why I posted the picture. I'm not sure what I should do?

Zombie Steve · September 1, 2008, 01:14 PM

Step 2 - back off die one turn and lock down.

You can back off a half turn, a quarter turn, or hardly any back-off at all if you want to and still get no crimp, if that's what you desire. That should give you a little more play.

If you aren't going to crimp, just make sure you can't get those bullets to set back in the case if you push them against something hard (your bench, for example). If they are setting back, I'd look at crimping.

Edit: sorry, I misread your Step 1. I will usually put a case in the shellholder, send the ram up then screw down the die until you feel it touch the top of the shell (bullet seater is backed out at this point), then back off a hair if I don't want a crimp. Then I'll set my bullet seater a bit at a time until I get the desired depth. Again, I don't own any Redding dies, so I'm not 100% on what they are telling you here...

resotek · September 1, 2008, 08:36 PM

I'm sure I can get the original OAL I was looking for by turning the seating die back down 1/2 turn or so, but it still seems strange to me that I can't seat to this depth following their procedure. Also, as a more general question, when two OAL numbers don't match is it best to use the data from the powder mfg. or the bullet mfg.?

TIA!

fourdogs · September 1, 2008, 09:55 PM

My question is why do you want to seat your bullets .085 deeper than recommended OAL. You are best to stick with the recommended OAL, but the best accuracy will usually be found if you seat them about .002 off the lands in a bolt gun. You don't want the bullet against the lands, but a few thousands off. Loading to factory OAL, the bullet will have to jump a long way to reach the lands, which will hurt accuracy.

There are different ways to find the correct OAL for your bullet if you want to seat them just off the lands. If you don't know how just ask, but my question still remains...... why do you want to seat your bullets .085 shorter than factory OAL.

resotek · September 1, 2008, 10:42 PM

I don't want too just for the heck of it... I promise.

I was attempting to use Hodgdon data which calls for OAL to be 2.56" for what I thought was the Barnes TSX bullet. My seating die won't do that depth adjusted per the redding instructions. So, my only option was to check the data published by Barnes for the TSX bullet, and they say OAL should be 2.645". However, I'm not using either powder they specify, so I don't know what to do at this point.

butta9999 · September 2, 2008, 03:22 AM

Get yourself a dummy round, size the case then make a hacksaw cut down the neck of the case. Get one of your projectiles and push it into your neck slightly. Feed the dummy round into your chamber and close the bolt. The ogive of the bullet will contact the lands and push the projectile back into the case. Carefully eject your round and measure the overall length. Repeat this process a few times and you will find it will come up with same results.

When you have determined the overall length you want to bring the projectile back a further 5 thou. The less jump into the lands the better accuracy you will acquire. You DO NOT want the bullet contacting the lands as this will cause high pressures, or the bullet getting jammed in the throat and you will have powder spilling in your action.

This is for your rifle only do not fire in other .243 as they will be diff specs, and if only neck sized this will be impossible anyway.

The overall lengths stated in your manuals are minimum lengths designed to chamber in all rifles, like a factory round.

Another thing you have to consider is your magazine length as this can be your only guide to your overall length. In my .300 win mag i have a lot of free travel becuase of this issue.

The further the bullet has to jump the more chance it has to hit the lands off balance then accuracy declines. As for your redding dies i am not familiar with them as i only use RCBS and LEE. Your seating stem should have plenty of adjustment be careful not to put your die in too deeply as you can buldge the case shoulder area when seating the bullet. Sometimes you will not feel this happening but it is easy to do.

fourdogs · September 2, 2008, 09:26 AM

butta9999 has it right, but my technique is slightly different. First of all don't load rounds under the factory OAL unless you have a very good reason such as a custom short throat. I you are unsure of the correct OAL, it's best to cross reference using different loading manuals. Second, if you are loading rounds into a magazine stick with the recommended OAL. If you want to hand feed each round ( my preference ) then load a few thousands off the lands.

I don't use a hacksaw. I make a dummy round ( no primer or powder ) neck sizing about .020. This will have enough grip to hold the bullet, but will allow it to slide back when the bolt is closed. Make sure the bullet is well past the normal OAL. After closing the bolt, eject the round ( carefully ) and take an accurate measurement, pull the bullet out and repeat, and maybe repeat again.

Then the most important part. You now only have a crude measurement. For a precise measurement make a new dummy round which is a few thousands longer than your new OAL, but this time size the neck so the bullet is tight. Take a candle ( a match will work ) and smoke the bullet. By that I mean blacken the bullet with a very light coat of soot. Run the round into the chamber and slowly close the bolt. Open the bolt and look at the bullet. If you see land marking, wipe off the soot, and put the round in your press. Seat the bullet .002 deeper and repeat the process. When you cannot see any land marks, or very faint marks subtract .002 from that OAL and that is what you will use only with your rifle and only with that specific type of bullet. If you change bullets or rifles, you must start over.

One more thing. You should start at the minimum recommended powder charge, because your pressures will be higher than normal seating the bullet so close to the lands.

Last....just a little clarification. A bullet is classified as a bullet until it leaves the muzzle. At that time it turns into a projectile, because it has been projected from the gun.

September 1, 2008, 12:16 PM	#2
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	I'm confused. Your bullet seater is all the way down? The die itself doesn't have any room to move down? Are you going to crimp into that cannelure? I don't have any Redding dies, but if you're running out of room adjusting the bullet seater, you probably have more room to adjust down the die.

September 1, 2008, 12:30 PM	#3
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	I agree with Steve. I've never had any problems with my RCBS dies. How much clearance do you have between the bottom of your die and the shell plate/shell holder ?

September 1, 2008, 12:47 PM	#4
resotek Junior Member Join Date: August 14, 2008 Posts: 4	The bullet seating die was adjusted according to the redding instructions. 1. Ram in full up position and die screwed down until contact with the shell holder. 2. Back off die one turn and lock down. 3. Bullet depth adjustment backed out. 4. Test seat and adjust until seating depth (OAL) is correct. The problem is I bottomed out the depth adjustment before getting to 2.56" OAL. Hence, I used the 2.645" OAL number from Barnes. Also, to answer your question, I had not planned to crimp into the cannelure, but that's why I posted the picture. I'm not sure what I should do?

September 1, 2008, 01:14 PM	#5
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	Step 2 - back off die one turn and lock down. You can back off a half turn, a quarter turn, or hardly any back-off at all if you want to and still get no crimp, if that's what you desire. That should give you a little more play. If you aren't going to crimp, just make sure you can't get those bullets to set back in the case if you push them against something hard (your bench, for example). If they are setting back, I'd look at crimping. Edit: sorry, I misread your Step 1. I will usually put a case in the shellholder, send the ram up then screw down the die until you feel it touch the top of the shell (bullet seater is backed out at this point), then back off a hair if I don't want a crimp. Then I'll set my bullet seater a bit at a time until I get the desired depth. Again, I don't own any Redding dies, so I'm not 100% on what they are telling you here...

September 1, 2008, 08:36 PM	#6
resotek Junior Member Join Date: August 14, 2008 Posts: 4	I'm sure I can get the original OAL I was looking for by turning the seating die back down 1/2 turn or so, but it still seems strange to me that I can't seat to this depth following their procedure. Also, as a more general question, when two OAL numbers don't match is it best to use the data from the powder mfg. or the bullet mfg.? TIA!

September 1, 2008, 09:55 PM	#7
fourdogs Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2008 Posts: 152	My question is why do you want to seat your bullets .085 deeper than recommended OAL. You are best to stick with the recommended OAL, but the best accuracy will usually be found if you seat them about .002 off the lands in a bolt gun. You don't want the bullet against the lands, but a few thousands off. Loading to factory OAL, the bullet will have to jump a long way to reach the lands, which will hurt accuracy. There are different ways to find the correct OAL for your bullet if you want to seat them just off the lands. If you don't know how just ask, but my question still remains...... why do you want to seat your bullets .085 shorter than factory OAL.

September 1, 2008, 10:42 PM	#8
resotek Junior Member Join Date: August 14, 2008 Posts: 4	I don't want too just for the heck of it... I promise. I was attempting to use Hodgdon data which calls for OAL to be 2.56" for what I thought was the Barnes TSX bullet. My seating die won't do that depth adjusted per the redding instructions. So, my only option was to check the data published by Barnes for the TSX bullet, and they say OAL should be 2.645". However, I'm not using either powder they specify, so I don't know what to do at this point.

September 2, 2008, 03:22 AM	#9
butta9999 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2008 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 692	Get yourself a dummy round, size the case then make a hacksaw cut down the neck of the case. Get one of your projectiles and push it into your neck slightly. Feed the dummy round into your chamber and close the bolt. The ogive of the bullet will contact the lands and push the projectile back into the case. Carefully eject your round and measure the overall length. Repeat this process a few times and you will find it will come up with same results. When you have determined the overall length you want to bring the projectile back a further 5 thou. The less jump into the lands the better accuracy you will acquire. You DO NOT want the bullet contacting the lands as this will cause high pressures, or the bullet getting jammed in the throat and you will have powder spilling in your action. This is for your rifle only do not fire in other .243 as they will be diff specs, and if only neck sized this will be impossible anyway. The overall lengths stated in your manuals are minimum lengths designed to chamber in all rifles, like a factory round. Another thing you have to consider is your magazine length as this can be your only guide to your overall length. In my .300 win mag i have a lot of free travel becuase of this issue. The further the bullet has to jump the more chance it has to hit the lands off balance then accuracy declines. As for your redding dies i am not familiar with them as i only use RCBS and LEE. Your seating stem should have plenty of adjustment be careful not to put your die in too deeply as you can buldge the case shoulder area when seating the bullet. Sometimes you will not feel this happening but it is easy to do.

September 2, 2008, 09:26 AM	#10
fourdogs Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2008 Posts: 152	butta9999 has it right, but my technique is slightly different. First of all don't load rounds under the factory OAL unless you have a very good reason such as a custom short throat. I you are unsure of the correct OAL, it's best to cross reference using different loading manuals. Second, if you are loading rounds into a magazine stick with the recommended OAL. If you want to hand feed each round ( my preference ) then load a few thousands off the lands. I don't use a hacksaw. I make a dummy round ( no primer or powder ) neck sizing about .020. This will have enough grip to hold the bullet, but will allow it to slide back when the bolt is closed. Make sure the bullet is well past the normal OAL. After closing the bolt, eject the round ( carefully ) and take an accurate measurement, pull the bullet out and repeat, and maybe repeat again. Then the most important part. You now only have a crude measurement. For a precise measurement make a new dummy round which is a few thousands longer than your new OAL, but this time size the neck so the bullet is tight. Take a candle ( a match will work ) and smoke the bullet. By that I mean blacken the bullet with a very light coat of soot. Run the round into the chamber and slowly close the bolt. Open the bolt and look at the bullet. If you see land marking, wipe off the soot, and put the round in your press. Seat the bullet .002 deeper and repeat the process. When you cannot see any land marks, or very faint marks subtract .002 from that OAL and that is what you will use only with your rifle and only with that specific type of bullet. If you change bullets or rifles, you must start over. One more thing. You should start at the minimum recommended powder charge, because your pressures will be higher than normal seating the bullet so close to the lands. Last....just a little clarification. A bullet is classified as a bullet until it leaves the muzzle. At that time it turns into a projectile, because it has been projected from the gun.