.45 Jukar Single Shot. What size ball? What Pyrodex load? Need patches?

5282jt · December 8, 2010, 10:21 PM

Hello, I am new to black powder pistols. I have a new 1858 New Army I got from Cabelas. It's a .44 and I use 28 grains pyrodex - a treated wad from Cabelas and .454 round balls. I love it and want to get a 2nd cylinder soon!
I just got a nice, slightly used .45 Jukar single shot. I fired it 3 times, loaded the same as my 1858.
But after reading some muzzleloading stories etc, I read about using a 430 patched ball in a .45 ?
Mathematically, I don't get it, but I want safety and accuracy, so what should I be using?
Also, how often should the 1858 be totally disassembled for a full cleaning? And what method of cleaning should I use on the Jukar? I can't pour hot water through it-there is no "through"

Does it have to be completely disassembled?
Thanks for your help!
Chuck

Fingers McGee · December 8, 2010, 11:54 PM

Single shot muzzleloaders generally use the patched roundball loading instead of the ball and wad loading of a revolver. A .45 cal single shot would use either a .430 or.440 round ball with a .010 or .015 patch. You need to do a little experimenting with various ball/patch combos to wring the best performance out of a front stuffer.

Hoppes #9 Plus BP solvent is what I use for my muzzleloaders with a properly sized cleaning jag and cotton patches. You can also take the nipple off the barrel and run hot water through it by putting the breech of the barrel in the water & using a tight fitting patch and jag on your ramrod, pump the water in and out of the barrel. You'd have to disassemble the pistol to do this; but just using a wet patch and swabbing the barrel would not require disassembly.

B.L.E. · December 9, 2010, 06:52 AM

Single shot pistols are loaded and shot just like muzzleloading rifles using a cloth patch that goes between the slightly undersized ball and the barrel. The ball and patch combo should be a reasonably tight fit for accuracy but not so tight that you need a hammer to load it.
Most .45 muzzleloaders use a .440 or .445 round ball. Pillow ticking makes excellent patch material and is sold precut ready for use in a lot of gun stores.
A good target load will probably be around 20-25 grains of powder, an empty .38 special case measures about 25 grains.
Hunting load will be around 30 to 35 grains.

Find the used patches after shooting and examine them for signs of burnthrough or cutting from blowby. If you see this, the combo is probably too loose.

Here is a link to a pretty good YouTube tutorial about loading a patched roundball in a muzzleloader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CEbB...eature=channel

Doc Hoy · December 9, 2010, 07:41 AM

....who thinks the breach plug should be removed for cleaning every once in a while.

Please understand it has been about 15 years since I have owned a single shot anything. (Come to think of it I bought and then immediately sold a Kentuckian about 18 months ago but never shot it.) But I can recall that when I removed the breach plug I would get additional material out of the barrel that remained after cleaning with just the nipple removed.

I know there is a way to properly clean the pistol without removing the plug (Fingers is very experienced so his method should produce good results) My main concern in not being able to remove the breach plug was that I never knew exactly how good a job I was doing with my cleaning. I had two rifles from which I simply could not remove the breach plug. Neither could a gunsmith. I have no idea how dirty these rifles were.

Many forum members who are far better verse in single shot BP shooting will say it is not important to get the breach plug out ever. I just happen to disagree.

madcratebuilder · December 9, 2010, 08:35 AM

Start with a powder weight half of the caliber size. .45 cal start with 22-23 grs. You can work up in 10-15% increases until you find a optimum load.

mykeal · December 9, 2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

But after reading some muzzleloading stories etc, I read about using a 430 patched ball in a .45 ?
Mathematically, I don't get it, but I want safety and accuracy, so what should I be using?

Revolvers are designed to use an oversize ball without any patch. The ball is swaged into the chamber. Single shot pistols and rifles are designed to use an undersize ball with a cloth or paper patch. The patch takes up the space between the ball and the barrel wall and seals the gas behind the ball.

Quote:

Also, how often should the 1858 be totally disassembled for a full cleaning?

Whatever makes you comfortable. Many people totally disassemble their revolvers after every use. I don't; I prefer to clean the internal parts periodically depending on how often their used. Usually every third or fourth, sometimes fifth use, but at least twice a year whether the gun gets used or not.

Quote:

And what method of cleaning should I use on the Jukar? I can't pour hot water through it-there is no "through"
Does it have to be completely disassembled?

Remove the barrel, submerge the breech end in water, use a cleaning jag and a wet cloth patch as a hydraulic ram to force water in and out of the nipple hole. The jag & patch will seal the bore well enough that you can actually suck water in the nipple hole as you draw it out of the barrel.

5282jt · December 9, 2010, 10:01 PM

The nearest store with BP supplies had only .440 balls
and no patches under .18 and I needed .10
They suggested I got to a fabric store and buy pillow ticking.
I did so at Walmart, but it must be too thick, because I have all I can do to force the patch and ball into the barrel.
I did load and fire it 3 times and it was as accurate as I would have expected= all 3 shots were within about 8" of the bullseye at 20 yards.
Of course, I don't know how accurate a .45 Jukar is?
I have always been a good shot, but i'm new to black powder guns.
Does this pillow ticking come in different thicknesses at fabric stores? Does anyone use anything different from a fabric store?
Thanks!

B.L.E. · December 9, 2010, 10:25 PM

Any tightly woven cotton cloth makes good patching. Make sure it's 100% cotton, no polyester or other manmade fiber mixed in.

mykeal · December 10, 2010, 09:00 AM

The vast majority of pillow ticking is going to be 0.015 to 0.020 thick; the density of the weave causes that dimension, and that density is also what makes pillow ticking useful for making pillows.

If your local sporting goods stores don't stock bp shooting patches in various thicknesses you'll need to buy some from the online sutlers.

8" group at 20 yards is poor accuracy; that gun should be capable of cloverleafs at 20 yards.

Jbar4Ranch · December 10, 2010, 09:34 AM

Go to a linen store, even Wal Mart, and buy a pair of nice Egyptian cotton pillow cases with the finest weave you can find... like 600 tpi or finer. Then cut 'em up into 3/4" squares.

He didn't say it was an 8" group, he said all three were within 8" of the bullseye... might have been a 1" group...

My four Jukar derringers.

B.L.E. · December 10, 2010, 07:53 PM

I have a derringer like that and it seems that it actually shoots harder with 10 or 15 grains of powder than it does with 25 or 30. If you put 30 or more grains of powder in it, half of that extremely short barrel becomes chamber and the loss of usable barrel length seems to offset the benefit of the higher powder charge.
I have gotten good velocity out of it by using a very small load of 10 grains of 4fg.

Hawg · December 11, 2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:

who thinks the breach plug should be removed for cleaning every once in a while.

Removing the breech plug from a side lock is a difficult proposition. It will probably take a vice and a cheater pipe to get it loose and it may not line up correctly on re installation.

Fingers McGee · December 11, 2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen

Removing the breech plug from a side lock is a difficult proposition. It will probably take a vice and a cheater pipe to get it loose and it may not line up correctly on re installation.

+1. Removing the breech plug on a caplock, especially with a plug and drum arrangement (CVA), and expecting to get it back together properly is a task best left to an experienced gunsmith.

5282jt · December 13, 2010, 05:51 PM

I think I'll check into this suggestion "Egyptian cotton pillow cases with the finest weave you can find... like 600 tpi "
I am also going to see if I can locate some .10 patches online. I looked some, but didn't find any so far.
I am also going to try a lighter powder charge. I used around 28 grains.
THANKS!

Fingers McGee · December 13, 2010, 07:37 PM

For patches, try

The Possibles Shop: http://www.possibleshop.com/s-s-patch.html

The Log Cabin Sport Shop: http://www.logcabinonline.com/index1.html

Cabelas: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot..._SEQ_104491980

Bass Pro, Track of the Wolf, Dixie, etc, etc, etc,

45lcshooter · December 24, 2010, 06:40 AM

Nice Derringers!!!!!!!!! ive been looking one of them. I have the same Jukar that 5282jt is talking about, and i love it. My buddy calls it the "blunderbuss" because at my farm the have a compost pile and when i got my Jukar he came along to shoot it. After i put in pyrodex it made some smoke, so then i got some Goex and really made the smoke. He had a blast with it!!!!

December 8, 2010, 10:21 PM	#1
5282jt Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 43	.45 Jukar Single Shot. What size ball? What Pyrodex load? Need patches? Hello, I am new to black powder pistols. I have a new 1858 New Army I got from Cabelas. It's a .44 and I use 28 grains pyrodex - a treated wad from Cabelas and .454 round balls. I love it and want to get a 2nd cylinder soon! I just got a nice, slightly used .45 Jukar single shot. I fired it 3 times, loaded the same as my 1858. But after reading some muzzleloading stories etc, I read about using a 430 patched ball in a .45 ? Mathematically, I don't get it, but I want safety and accuracy, so what should I be using? Also, how often should the 1858 be totally disassembled for a full cleaning? And what method of cleaning should I use on the Jukar? I can't pour hot water through it-there is no "through" Does it have to be completely disassembled? Thanks for your help! Chuck

December 8, 2010, 11:54 PM	#2
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Single shot muzzleloaders generally use the patched roundball loading instead of the ball and wad loading of a revolver. A .45 cal single shot would use either a .430 or.440 round ball with a .010 or .015 patch. You need to do a little experimenting with various ball/patch combos to wring the best performance out of a front stuffer. Hoppes #9 Plus BP solvent is what I use for my muzzleloaders with a properly sized cleaning jag and cotton patches. You can also take the nipple off the barrel and run hot water through it by putting the breech of the barrel in the water & using a tight fitting patch and jag on your ramrod, pump the water in and out of the barrel. You'd have to disassemble the pistol to do this; but just using a wet patch and swabbing the barrel would not require disassembly. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

December 9, 2010, 07:41 AM	#4
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I am among a very small minority.... ....who thinks the breach plug should be removed for cleaning every once in a while. Please understand it has been about 15 years since I have owned a single shot anything. (Come to think of it I bought and then immediately sold a Kentuckian about 18 months ago but never shot it.) But I can recall that when I removed the breach plug I would get additional material out of the barrel that remained after cleaning with just the nipple removed. I know there is a way to properly clean the pistol without removing the plug (Fingers is very experienced so his method should produce good results) My main concern in not being able to remove the breach plug was that I never knew exactly how good a job I was doing with my cleaning. I had two rifles from which I simply could not remove the breach plug. Neither could a gunsmith. I have no idea how dirty these rifles were. Many forum members who are far better verse in single shot BP shooting will say it is not important to get the breach plug out ever. I just happen to disagree. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

December 9, 2010, 10:01 PM	#7
5282jt Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 43	Good info! I got .440 balls today and the wrong thickness of Pillow ticking???? The nearest store with BP supplies had only .440 balls and no patches under .18 and I needed .10 They suggested I got to a fabric store and buy pillow ticking. I did so at Walmart, but it must be too thick, because I have all I can do to force the patch and ball into the barrel. I did load and fire it 3 times and it was as accurate as I would have expected= all 3 shots were within about 8" of the bullseye at 20 yards. Of course, I don't know how accurate a .45 Jukar is? I have always been a good shot, but i'm new to black powder guns. Does this pillow ticking come in different thicknesses at fabric stores? Does anyone use anything different from a fabric store? Thanks! Last edited by 5282jt; December 9, 2010 at 10:02 PM. Reason: spelling

December 10, 2010, 09:34 AM	#10
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	Go to a linen store, even Wal Mart, and buy a pair of nice Egyptian cotton pillow cases with the finest weave you can find... like 600 tpi or finer. Then cut 'em up into 3/4" squares. He didn't say it was an 8" group, he said all three were within 8" of the bullseye... might have been a 1" group... My four Jukar derringers. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

December 9, 2010, 06:52 AM	#3
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Single shot pistols are loaded and shot just like muzzleloading rifles using a cloth patch that goes between the slightly undersized ball and the barrel. The ball and patch combo should be a reasonably tight fit for accuracy but not so tight that you need a hammer to load it. Most .45 muzzleloaders use a .440 or .445 round ball. Pillow ticking makes excellent patch material and is sold precut ready for use in a lot of gun stores. A good target load will probably be around 20-25 grains of powder, an empty .38 special case measures about 25 grains. Hunting load will be around 30 to 35 grains. Find the used patches after shooting and examine them for signs of burnthrough or cutting from blowby. If you see this, the combo is probably too loose. Here is a link to a pretty good YouTube tutorial about loading a patched roundball in a muzzleloader. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CEbB...eature=channel

December 9, 2010, 08:35 AM	#5
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Start with a powder weight half of the caliber size. .45 cal start with 22-23 grs. You can work up in 10-15% increases until you find a optimum load.

December 9, 2010, 10:25 PM	#8
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Any tightly woven cotton cloth makes good patching. Make sure it's 100% cotton, no polyester or other manmade fiber mixed in.

December 10, 2010, 09:00 AM	#9
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	The vast majority of pillow ticking is going to be 0.015 to 0.020 thick; the density of the weave causes that dimension, and that density is also what makes pillow ticking useful for making pillows. If your local sporting goods stores don't stock bp shooting patches in various thicknesses you'll need to buy some from the online sutlers. 8" group at 20 yards is poor accuracy; that gun should be capable of cloverleafs at 20 yards.

December 10, 2010, 07:53 PM	#11
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I have a derringer like that and it seems that it actually shoots harder with 10 or 15 grains of powder than it does with 25 or 30. If you put 30 or more grains of powder in it, half of that extremely short barrel becomes chamber and the loss of usable barrel length seems to offset the benefit of the higher powder charge. I have gotten good velocity out of it by using a very small load of 10 grains of 4fg.

December 13, 2010, 05:51 PM	#14
5282jt Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 43	All great information! MUCH APPRECIATED! I think I'll check into this suggestion "Egyptian cotton pillow cases with the finest weave you can find... like 600 tpi " I am also going to see if I can locate some .10 patches online. I looked some, but didn't find any so far. I am also going to try a lighter powder charge. I used around 28 grains. THANKS!

December 13, 2010, 07:37 PM	#15
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	For patches, try The Possibles Shop: http://www.possibleshop.com/s-s-patch.html The Log Cabin Sport Shop: http://www.logcabinonline.com/index1.html Cabelas: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot..._SEQ_104491980 Bass Pro, Track of the Wolf, Dixie, etc, etc, etc, __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

December 24, 2010, 06:40 AM	#16
45lcshooter Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Posts: 27	Nice Derringers!!!!!!!!! ive been looking one of them. I have the same Jukar that 5282jt is talking about, and i love it. My buddy calls it the "blunderbuss" because at my farm the have a compost pile and when i got my Jukar he came along to shoot it. After i put in pyrodex it made some smoke, so then i got some Goex and really made the smoke. He had a blast with it!!!!