What all Revolver shooters who reload their own should remember.

[Nanuk]

LOL, I'm with ya hotdog... The only shooting I do with 357 now a days is IDPA. I use my 44's for everything else, except as a duty gun, my rich uncle (Sam) does not much care for me using a 44 mag on duty.:barf:

[Buckythebrewer]

he,he Umm He he.

[drvector]

Question for Hal…I noticed in your post that you found Red Dot to have some unique characteristics. Since I've just started loading 38’s using Red Dot (based on the advice of a couple of friends), I would be interested if you could share your experience on this powder. I’m loading laser cast 148 grn wad cutters with Red Dot.

Thanks much

[kingudaroad]

You will see loadings for Magnums with a fast powder. I would not do this. Your margin of error is too small. One-tenth of a grain with the fast powders in a 9mil & 38spl is one thing; with a Magnum that same one-tenth of a fast powder grain might increase your pressure dramatically. While three or four tenths of a grain with slow burning powder may not, less likelyhood, raise pressure to the extreme with the Magnums.

I am under the impression that slow burning powders like h110 have less margin of error in magnum loads, as they can't be safely reduced for lower velocity loads.

You can use a much wider range of charge with say Unique as opposed to H110.

This would be opposite from what you are trying to say...I think??

[mcgiiver]

What's the big deal. If you don't name the powder so others can benefit from your experience, your long-winded post is wasted. We all realize that certain powders are better in certain cartridges, but since we like to experiment, like you, you could save us some heartache by naming the powder. Otherwise we might waste time and money finding out exactly what you did.

[HiPowering Along]

Hotdog - I'll second the earlier motions by other posters - what in the blazes is the powder you're talking about?

However, when something is that bloody obvious after being told this:

The man who keeps my guns going only told me about 50 times not to load 38s with that particular powder. Ahh; he only fixes and builds guns.

the rest of the handloading community would appreciate an answer besides a smart aleck one about not "wanting to disclose the powder".


Look at the number of views on the post - now well over 1,000. I'm fairly new to reloading, take what I read on the forums with grain of salt sometimes, try to err on the side of safety, and do read the manuals well. I also read the forums out here (TFL) to gain information. You think that many people are impressed in reading this entire thread without finding the punch line? I sure as heck am not impressed.

I can be as subtle as a breath of wind, or a smartly swung baseball bat. Heres the baseball bat version: Put the dang info out here about the powder for the rest to see, for cryin' out loud. That's what a 'community forum' is for.

[Hotdog1911]

1) Slow, or Magnum powders don't do well in non magnum cartridges. Slow powders need case capacity and volume and to burn efficiently. The manuals might give a load for a slow powder in a small case, but, but, pay attention here, if you read carefully somewhere in the manual they will confirm what I just said in the above first sentence.

Some Reloaders may still use Magnum or slow powders in a non Magnum case for convenience & experimentation, or just to provide some varity to the art of Reloading. On to fast powders.

2) Fast powders are usually used in the non Magnums or shorter cased cartridges. There isn't a lot of time to burn the powder in the shorter cases. With standard cartridges a small amount of fast powder will push the bullet as fast as the case capacity allows.

Take all this with a grain of salt. There is an exception for every rule. The answers to your specific questions should be in your reloading manual.

Some confusion may arise when you hear about 'Magnum' powders in a non-magnun case. Just because its a 'Magnum' powder doesn't mean that it will automatically build up excess pressure in a non magnum case. There may not be enough time & space to build-up the heat & pressure. Sure, you can definitely over charge any non magnum case with Magnum powders, but you really have to try. The mix-match is a little different with fast powders.

You can use fast powders in a Magnum case; it's just not advisable because your room for error is smaller than it would be if you were using a slow powder. Let me show you an example.

357 Remington Mag:1xx grain jacketed bullet. A slow powder, xxx, starts at xxx grains and reaches its maximum at xxx. A full 1.7 grains to work with between the starting and ending spectrum. A fast powder, yyy, starts at yyy and ends at yyy. Only .7 grain separates your starting point and ending point.

Between these two loads, the xxx builds an additional 700 copper units of pressure, or CUP. Both loads are tipping the scale at 40,000 cup each, and both loads are at a safe level, but, there's always a but, xxx is sending the bullet downrange 371 fps faster. So for a vey small increase in CUP you gain an extra 371 fps. It's called staying within safe levels of pressure and producing better bullet velocity with the availible copper units of pressure.

I wanted a 158 SWC, cast, light loaded 38 spl. Instead of using a fast powder, I wanted to re-invent the reloading wheel. Instead of dumping in 3.4 grains of Xfast powder in like I've done thousands of times before; I put in 4.2 grains of Yslow powder in. There was a specific load in the manual I picked out and used as described. The downrange performance was good. They didn't change my zero. But what I did get was a lot of excess smoke due to the unburned powder. And another little surprise.

You guessed it. The evil red crumbs. Enough to sprinkle on every piece of the Yuletide pumpkin pie. Enough that even someone with 20/90 vision could see from across the dinner table. Wait a minute; this could be the start of a new Holiday food fashion trend. Who needs to know anything about reloading? Hey Martha, I've got a new idea...

[Capt. Charlie]

I am under the impression that slow burning powders like h110 have less margin of error in magnum loads, as they can't be safely reduced for lower velocity loads.

A few years ago, I was looking for a nice, middle-of-the-road load for .357 mag, and after checking my Speer manual, settled on Herco. It's a nice slow burning shotgun powder that Speer said would work well in a .357.

While I don't have the figures today, I loaded 18 test rounds well below the weights Speer said were max. Took 'em to the range and put six through my 6" 586. Good Lord!!! . I've shot full house .44 mags that didn't kick like that! Upon ejecting the empties, every primer was flattened, and I mean flattened! I'm really thankful I didn't try that in a K-frame.

The other 12 rounds? I pulled the bullets, and oh yeah, the Herco became lawn fertilizer .

Lesson learned: I stick with tried & true pistol powders.

[Hotdog1911]

If flash & smoke is an issue with you, and you are reloading your own, I have a few recommendations:

For revolvers in particular, W231 has given me less flash and less smoke that any of the other powder. Not all W231 is the same when it comes to flash, so you will have to test one lot number of 231 against another lot of 231. I use ammo boxs marked, 'Law Enforcement Only' when comparing the factory stuff against my reloads using W231 powder.

Find a powder distributor in your area who can get the same W231 in the same lot numbers. One lbs cans preferabley. One of the lots should prove satisfactory. When you find the correct lot number you will want to buy a few lbs. Four & eight lbs kegs of the correct low flash stuff is good start. For urban dwellers, testing might require some travel so have a plan.

Shoot only jacketed bullets. The lube on the cast bullets produces more smoke than the actual powder.

Keep good records. Keep track of W231 lot numbers, the less and the not so less flash. Use a camera light meter and record the ambient light. Use a familiar course of fire and keep score. Example, at 7 yards with a NRA B-27 target. How many points did you get in how many seconds as compared to your own 'hos'em down' score during daylight.

Low light shooting has its own particular safety issues. Obey all 4 safety rules; watch where you going without destroying your night vision. Easy for me to say.

For the record, viynal if you please, I use only factory issued ammo for all my SD work. But you never know if the round in the chamber right now is the one you will need.

[Hotdog1911]

The powder I used was a good powder. It is still a good powder. It was and is a slow powder. For best results a 38spl light load of any kind calls for a fast powder. That info is about 75 years old.

I miss used the powder for the application. As long as you understand that I do not recommend using a slow powder for any 38spl. and should not have used a slow powder with a 38spl to begin with, well then, you got it. You would also be miles ahead of the rest if you also understood that there was never any safety concearn using this powder in the fashion that I did. I just didn't use the powder efficiently. Hense the red crumbs.

If I named the powder it would have been miss leading to you and the rest of the readers; you might miss the point that you shouldn't use a slow powder in a short, high capacity, or non magnum case.

Any slow burning powder would have produced less than favorable results. It doesn't matter which slow powder it was. Had I used any other slow powder, instead of red crumbs it would have been gray flakes or black kernals. This is starting to read like a kid's Saturday Morning T.V. cereal commercial.

Use a fast powder for your .32s, 380s, 9 mills, 38spls of all kinds and you will do well. An example of a fast powder is Bullseye, W231, HP-38 and Tightgroup.

A slow powder, preferable in your .357s, 41s, and 44 Magnums, example would be Unique, 2400, W296, and H110.

If I had an experience like Capt. Charles just posted I'd scream that powder's name all over the devil's half acre. I won't hold back info that effects our money or safety.

[drvector]

Hotdog,

I don’t normally make comments like this, but I’ve got to admit, this has been one of the more bizarre threads that I’ve read. However, after 35 postings and a moderate amount of frustration (or maybe amusement), we’ve gotten a little closer to the point.

[cpaspr]

but if you read Capt. Charlie's post carefully, you'll note that while he admits to using Herco, he got the info from a Speer manual. The manuals do sometimes make mistakes. Those are the kinds of things we all need to know. If a particular manual is advocating a potentially bad load. They need to know, and anyone you can inform via an online forum needs to know.

That you found the load in a manual "There is a load for it right here on page 12." is important. This was not an "I'll make it up as I go" load.

That is why we all want to know exactly what your combination was. Not that the powder is a bad powder, when used correctly for the right applications, but that someone has a less than adequate combination out there in published data.

We want to know what manual, and what powder, so we can avoid the same problems. Withholding that info does a disservice to your fellow reloaders.

[snuffy]

For revolvers in particular, W231 has given me less flash and less smoke that any of the other powders. Not all W231 is the same when it comes to flash, so you will have to test one lot number of 231 against another lot of 231. I use ammo boxs marked, 'Law Enforcement Only' when comparing the factory stuff against my reloads using W231 powder.

Find a powder distributor in your area who can get the same W231 in the same lot numbers. One lbs cans preferabley. One of the lots should prove satisfactory. When you find the correct lot number you will want to buy a few lbs. Four & eight lbs kegs of the correct low flash stuff is good start. For urban dwellers, testing might require some travel so have a plan.

This is pure BS! SmokeLESS powder is just that; it smokes less than black powder. None of it is smoke FREE! What is the big deal with the ammount of smoke anyway, it's never enough to affect or obscure the target, even in indoor ranges.

As for the assumption that one lot of a canister powder has less smoke than another, again BS! The chemical make-up HAS to be identical from lot-to-lot. The burn rate also HAS to be identical, so it won't flash more or less. If you are noticing variations in burn rate, you are being inconsistant in your loading methods. If you were talking about surplus pull-down powder, then I'd have to agree.

XXX xx Xx does not tell us a thing about which powder to avoid. We know about the old addage NOT to use less than starting loads for the slow powders. Your results COULD have resulted in a wrecked, KA-BOOM revolver. It's called detonation. Just what the crumbs mentioned were WE still don't know. I've noted unburned chunks when using aliant 2400 in .44 mag loads. Perfectly normal. In my SBH it's of no concern. In a DA revolver, it could result in NOT getting the crane to close completely.

[Sarge]

I don't have a thing to add to the original topic of this thread, whatever it was. I do have something that may be of value to handgun & rifle reloaders, though.

I have been loading for 32 years. I started with a Lee Loader, went to a single stage press, tried some progressives and went right back to a single stage press. My reloading precedures were built around single-stage presses, and I'm more interested in building a limited number of exceptional reloads, than I am in building thousands of rounds of questionable reloads. Thus is not to say the progressives are bad. Rather, they are just not good for me.

My suggestion is that you never, ever deviate from load data published by the component manufacturers, or reputable sources such as the reloading sections of major gun publications. Before you try any load, check it against the work of the component manufacturers. If it isn't within their range of start-max data- don't use it.

It appears to me that our original poster made himself a problem by using too little of a slow, magnum pistol powder. He won't say which one. Now I am open to correction on this point, because the information has been a little hard to follow. The manuals all advise against this and there is good reason for it. If the recommended charge amounts had been followed, there wouldn't have been a problem at all.

My suggestion to all you beginning reloaders is to keep your reloading efforts simple. Select an established load that meets your needs, using a powder that is optimum in that application. There is little need to experiment. The powder companies alone have ridiculously expensive lab and pressure equipment, the results of which go into that little free load data book that most of them publish on a yearly basis. You can believe their recommendations are based on solid research, and that the loads will do what they say they will.

Select a powder that works within the range of calibers you load the most, and stick with it. For instance, I load .357, .40, .44 Mag and .45 ACP handgun ammo. My loads in .44 Mag alone run the gamut from plinkers, that will just shoot through a 2x4, to 300 grain loads that will 'shoot through the whole house'. A similar light load is also used for the .45 ACP, as well as 200 grain target loads. That entire spectrum of handgun reloading is handled by two Winchester powders- W231 and W296. I am comfortable working with these powders, but the same could be accomplished with HP38 and H110, if I preferred Hodgdon's.

The same concept applies to my rifle loads, which are .223, .30-30 and .30-06. H4895 will handle anything I wish to accomplish, with any of them.

So pick a powder that works for you, in the cartridges you are loading. Find a load for each that is within the component manufacturer's recommendations, which meets your needs. Then stick with them both.

This advice is not given lightly. I have tried a LOT of different powders over the years, in addition to being given about 10 cannisters of various other powders, by a brother who was getting out of the hobby. The least fun I ever had reloading was trying to find workable loads with all those powders, that still shot to my sights with the bullets I had settled on decades ago. The only time I ever got near dangerous pressures, was in using powders I wasn't familiar with.

Kepp your loading simple. I reload because I like to shoot, and shooting with safe, proven loads allows you to concentrate on your shooting- without having to worry about those 'reloading gremlins' spoiling your day.

[Hotdog1911]

Dr. Vec, yes, it is bizarre. And that's how it should be. I tried a different load and got some different results. Some viewers think it's a big deal, and men like Sruffy see it from a different view.

As for Scruffy: Thank You. Your post put everything I was writing about my little experience into perspective. Towards the end of your last post you said you used 2400, and that the unburned chucks you were getting was "perfectly normal". You may be right. Your 2400 loads may very well indeed leave little crumbs behind after firing. If that is acceptable to you than fine. As for me, I consider 'getting the crane on my revolver to close completely' as one of my top priorities in shooting. Now some answers and facts about my second post regarding flash.

I will answer you in the same order that I received them from your ealier post. Again, Thank You for your responce. Others may have some dought as well; please allow me to explain in detail some differences of opinion. As always, I don't have all the answers. I might be wrong. I may be a victim of my own over active imagination.

Yes, Scruffy, you are correct. Smokeless does not mean smoke free. Sorry if I confused you. You asked what the big deal was about smoke, and you think the smoke from firing pistols has not or will not obscure the target? Well, do you think smoke will make the target more clear?

Don't take my word for it. The after action reports from Irac and from our own local shotouts that LE gets into from time to time mention smoke, and flash, a lot; especially when someone asks them about identifying their fast & slow moving aggressor(s) at night or in buildings or at any other time when there wasn't much light.

As for canisters. The canister is of no importance in regard to smoke & flash. It is the lot number printed on each canister that reloaders should pay attention to- from 1 pounders to 50 lbs. Each canister has a lot number on it.

I'm sure you are correct when you say the burn-rate is the same from different lot number to different lot number. The only way that I can think of to get the same heat & pressure from internal metallic case combustion would come from a uniform burn rate. My post wasn't about burn rate. It was about external burning characteristics.

The score results of my daytime 50 yard targets, using my reloads, with a stock 1911 attest to my reloading abilities.

My apologies concerning the 'XXX' references on a earlier post. After reviewing TFL's concerns about such posts I xxx'ed out the name of the powders. However, the powder amounts, feet per second and Cooper Units of Pressure are the exact figures found in Hodgdon's Powder No. 27 Data Manual.

You used the term 'detonation'. Hopefully all of our reloads and factory ammo will detonate for us when the ammo is in the proper sequence in the gun and on demand. Did you mean, 'Flash-Over'? One last thing.

If you want an example of the importance of flash you need to look no further than the WWII Battle of Leyte Gulf. The U.S. Navy's biggest surface warfare engagement. Befor Dec. 7th, the Japanese Navy anticipated the importance of fire & maneuver at night. So the Japanese practiced & developed the art of night fighting with battleships at night. Guess who owned the South Pacific Ocean-at night? See & listen to the surviving Veterans from both sides on T.V. They will describe in vivid detail what the flash signatures from the Empire of Japan Warships looked like as compared to Allied War Ships. Afterwards you can tell me again there is no such thing as anti-flash powder and all about its insignificance to pistol shooting today.

[Mal H]

Hotdog1911, out of curiosity, what is a "Cooper Unit of Pressure"?

[Hotdog1911]

Pressure expressed in Pounds per sqare inch. Lately the industry looks like it may be going back to using PSI.

[snuffy]

"Cooper Unit of Pressure"?

Huh? Here I thought maybe Jeff Cooper had something to do with that!? OIC he meant coPPer units of pressure.

So hotdog when you can't really make a good point, you modify my screen name to make me look silly?

As for Scruffy: Thank You.

To answer your post, No flash doesn't bother me. Why? Because modern powders have a coating on them to reduce flash, called flash retardant coating. If you're using the powder in question in it's proper pressure range, you should not get excessive flash OR smoke,(when used with jacketed or plated bullets).None of the WW11 powders had that. If you get some surplus powders that were pulled-down from WW11 era shells, you can SEE the difference between them and modern cannister grade powders.

Your point about battleships and their big guns relates to this discussion how?

As for canisters. The canister is of no importance in regard to smoke & flash. It is the lot number printed on each canister that reloaders should pay attention to- from 1 pounders to 50 lbs. Each canister has a lot number on it.

The cannister I referred to is as in "cannister grade powders". Meaning powders made to be released to the reloading public. It HAS to be the SAME between different lots made at different times. It does NOT meant the "CAN" it came in!

You used the term 'detonation'. Hopefully all of our reloads and factory ammo will detonate for us when the ammo is in the proper sequence in the gun and on demand. Did you mean, 'Flash-Over'? One last thing.

I sincerely hope you don't think that the powder you load into your shells is detonating? Detonation is how high explosives work. We do NOT want detonation in our small arms shells, or for that matter in ANY firearm. The detonation I referred to is what happens when a small charge of slow burning powder is loaded in a large case. IE a reduced charge of W-296 in a .44 mag. That's why every loading manual I've seen warns NOT TO reduce the minimum loads listed for W-296 or H-110.

[Mal H]

Pressure expressed in Pounds per sqare inch.

Ah ha! Now I understand. So Cooper Units of Pressure and Pounds per inch^2 are equivalent.



Snuffy sez, "you modify my screen name ..." Don't take it too personally, he got my name wrong also.

[Hotdog1911]

Well Scruff, it doesn't appear that anyone eles is interested in smoke & flash. Keep shooting.

[Mike Irwin]

Deaddog,

I thought Cooper units were how many rounds of .45 ACP one had on hand?

Has the terminology changed again?

[Mike Irwin]

"Lately the industry looks like it may be going back to using PSI."

Going BACK to PSI?

The industry has been moving towards PSI since the late 1980s.

When I was with American Rifleman in the early 1990s Ohler brought out its first integrated ballistics set up running with a laptop computer. It included a lot of neat stuff, including reusable strain gauges.

Piezoelectric strain gauges have been largely responsible for getting the industry away from either copper units of pressure or lead units of pressure and the laborious calibration processes that has to be completed with every lot of crushers.

Some (Hornady and Sierra, I believe) also use piezoelectric crusher gauges in place of the old CUP/LUP setups.

[brickeyee]

I know what i am going to remember...
Ignore any posting from Hotdog1911.

They are just drivel and probably based on something besides actual experience since he cannot bring himself to name a single powder.

Makes you wnder if he even knows what he used.